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OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

theguardian.com

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Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#51

Post by user5994461 »

sgc wrote: post #49
mpweiher wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a license to have meaning, the original work needs to be protected, for example by copyright. If the work isn't protected by copyright, you can still write that license, but you have no means of enforcing said license.

Do we have precedent for this? Can you truly not sue if you enter an agreement with someone to provide them with data that restricts their rights to use it, but the data is actually in the public domain? What about implicit agreements like TOS on a website? These are pertinent concerns for which I have never found a definitive answer.

The first precedent passed in French appeal court and European court just a few months ago. I shall probably do a blog post to cover the case or nobody ever will.

It acknowledges software license (the GPL in that case) as a contract granting obligation to both parties and enforced it as a contract. The claims around copyright/counterfeit were pretty much dismissed (you can't pursue on both copyright and contract grounds in France because they are different legal responsibilities).

Since it's possible to make contracts on pretty much anything between two companies (but not for consumers), there's a chance that the openstreetmap contract has grounds irrelevant of the database rights.

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#52

Post by mytailorisrich »

Bayart wrote: post #43
mytailorisrich wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not die because there's still truth in it. Bureaucracy is still Kafkaesque for a start. I have been dealing with both British and French administrations extensively and I can tell you it's night and day.

I can't speak for Britain but a lot of administrative services in France are digital now. I'm rarely trapped in bureaucratic nonsense like I would have been say ten years ago. Most services you'd require on any given day (taxes, welfare, unemployment office, healthcare, ID registration, voting registration, starting a basic corporate structure) are trivially available. The biggest problem now is discoverability as go…

As someone who's trying to renew his passport: Services have partially moved online (still have to attend in person...) but they still are bureaucratic nonsense, indeed.

Bureaucracy is Kafkaesque because of the complicated and seemingly random rules, because of the abundance of taxes, etc. There really needs to be a drastic reset of everything.

A good example: The attestation people had to print and fill in if they wanted to leave home during the lockdown. Why? This is bonkers even if it eventually became digital.

Another good example: Starting a business. I don't know if it can be simpler and faster than the way it works in the UK. In France, on the other hand...

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#53

Post by syshum »

kmlx wrote: post #14
mrtksn wrote: post #6

Oh this is about the "Database Rights". In essence, EU, UK and the USA has different opinion on the ownership status and rights of databases. EU: Databases are similar to other copyrightable works, thus you can't simply copy someones database. UK: Like EU but with different flavour. USA: There's no such things as database rights. Apparently, although the positions of UK and EU are similar, since UK is no longer in th…

another fun fact: only the UK, EU and Russia have "database rights". No other country has anything similar. And I'm guessing a good reason why no one else has this has to do with free use and research. Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece.

I am note sure how one can even have database rights.

If I compile a record of all temperatures for the last 10 years, How can I prevent someone from also creating a database that has temperatures for the last 10 years?

That is why in US Law facts can not be copyrighted, only "creative" works, and facts are not creative they are facts

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#54

Post by IshKebab »

avianlyric wrote: post #39
123pie123 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa" I'm not sure I follow, surely the OSM database existed before 1/1/21 thus they have no issues or does it apply to db updates?

The database as it existed before 1/1/21 would be protected. But I suspect any contributions made after that date won’t be.

Why do they want protection in the first place? Isn't it meant to be open?

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#55

Post by jdavis703 »

IshKebab wrote: post #54
avianlyric wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The database as it existed before 1/1/21 would be protected. But I suspect any contributions made after that date won’t be.

Why do they want protection in the first place? Isn't it meant to be open?

Open is not the same as public domain.

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#56

Post by jokethrowaway »

bloak wrote: post #2

This is partly about "mutual recognition of database rights": "since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa". It's not something most people need to worry about, but I expect OpenStreetMap won't be the only company affected by that.

So once OSM moves to Europe I can clone OSM database without worries just by residing in the UK?

Surely this is a problem already with the USA and the rest of the world? If this protection is not enforced everywhere in the world, it's quite useless. I just need to setup a foreign company to bypass it.

This is probably something that is "solved" with a contract: Eg. "By downloading this database you agree to abide to these rules: don't clone it or we'll sue you for X millions"

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#57

Post by sbuk »

Bayart wrote: post #43
mytailorisrich wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not die because there's still truth in it. Bureaucracy is still Kafkaesque for a start. I have been dealing with both British and French administrations extensively and I can tell you it's night and day.

I can't speak for Britain but a lot of administrative services in France are digital now. I'm rarely trapped in bureaucratic nonsense like I would have been say ten years ago. Most services you'd require on any given day (taxes, welfare, unemployment office, healthcare, ID registration, voting registration, starting a basic corporate structure) are trivially available. The biggest problem now is discoverability as go…

As a Francophile Brit that grew up in France, and with the greatest of respect, you are French. It's a totally different story if you are not French. The bureucracy is horrific, even today. My parents have lived there for 30 years, both are fully integrated into the community, and they still face bureuctratic issues and delays, even digitally because they are not French. I'm not suggesting in any way that France is a particulaly xenophobic nation - us Brits have that sewn up, sadly - but the system is very xenophobic in my long experience.

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#58

Post by stereo »

skywal_l wrote: post #4

It's not really clear to me what the problem is. Doesn't the Open Database License applies everywhere, brexit or not? I never thought that where an "open source" project is physically located as any impact on the license it uses.

It applies everywhere. The protection in it is in multiple ways, and the database protection has been quite useful in the past. It's always good to have more than one string to your bow.

Database protection is the biggest reason for moving, but not the only one.

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#59

Post by stereo »

user5994461 wrote: post #51
sgc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have precedent for this? Can you truly not sue if you enter an agreement with someone to provide them with data that restricts their rights to use it, but the data is actually in the public domain? What about implicit agreements like TOS on a website? These are pertinent concerns for which I have never found a definitive answer.

The first precedent passed in French appeal court and European court just a few months ago. I shall probably do a blog post to cover the case or nobody ever will. It acknowledges software license (the GPL in that case) as a contract granting obligation to both parties and enforced it as a contract. The claims around copyright/counterfeit were pretty much dismissed (you can't pursue on both copyright and contract grou…

Yes, the ODbL is indeed built like that.

Re: OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

#60

Post by sigg3 »

tinus_hn wrote: post #50
gubby wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece. You are entitled to create a similar database based on your own efforts or research. So, you could walk the streets of London with an iPad to make your own KmlxStreetMap. You just can't directly copy or transfer rows from someone else's. This seems like a good page: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/database-rights…

It can easily turn into a farce. In the Netherlands there was a case where a company was allowed to copy the phone book, but only as long as they had real people manually copy the data from the original book.

Does it mean that Dutch is now a query language?
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