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Why do we work so damn much?

nytimes.com

51–60 of 69 posts

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our current system is designed Do people really believe this language is accurate or likely to be helpful? What are we going to do, locate the designer and thwart their evil plan? Or attempt to locate the blueprint? It seems to me that this kind of wording gives way too much credit to human consciousness.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

> it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures

So you don't suppose there's much unconsciously created and refined structure to it?

We hear so much about anxiety and pressure being rampant in modern society. I just wonder why mention of these (and other, unwanted, disavowed) forces is always left out of all the design talk. It seems to me to be the perfect setup for the worst parts of tomorrow's "design"...

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our current system is designed Do people really believe this language is accurate or likely to be helpful? What are we going to do, locate the designer and thwart their evil plan? Or attempt to locate the blueprint? It seems to me that this kind of wording gives way too much credit to human consciousness.

Would "built" have sufficed?

Was it built Ford tough? Who built it, why, how? Do we even think we have satisfactory answers to these questions (especially in the broader scope)? Do we want tomorrow's "thing we built" to be better?

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#53
Years ago I worked at a company where I was passionate about the work I was doing. Did a lot of hours, worked in the evening... that sort of thing. The job was basically doing doing the work in lieu of a system to install software on bunches and bunches of hosts, being developed by a team of about 5-10 developers. When changes were pushed, we'd be asked to test if the installations would work -- but 9/10 times it never did. And because the devs were opinionated about ~ephemerality~, there were no logs for us to figure out what happened. So we would have to manually ssh into hosts and do the install. My team just gave up on the tool at some point -- nothing we ever said to the devs or management worked to prioritize making the damn thing work. Mind you, the linux-side installer itself was given to us by the vendor and packaged as .rpms and .debs and the devs were working on this for probably a year at that point.

Part of my job there was to add tests into ansible to make sure that the devs' installer could do what it was designed to do. But.. every time I tried to push anything, I would be given absolutely nonsense reasons for why my code wasn't acceptable. The worst instance was an ansible config getting rejected by a dev because I used bash in the ansible deploy code and that "not all clients' hosts will have bash" (in spite of a contractual requirement for bash to be installed). He insisted that I call /usr/bin/python instead. It was infuriating. I ended up writing my own automation that would install on an arbitrary set of hosts using the company's existing automation infrastructure just so that I wouldn't have to manually ssh into hosts or deal with the devs' nonsense. It worked well!

Anywho, the point. With the devs being asininely critical of my code, my boss eventually had a talk with me, saying that my performance wasn't great and that I wasn't pushing any code. I disagreed, but gave up, said fuck it, wrote four lines of "passable" ansible configs, then watched youtube for the rest of the week. At the end of the week, my boss told me that my performance was much, much better and that I should keep it up. So until I quit, I did as little work as I could.

Seriously.. sometimes it just really doesn't make sense to go above and beyond.

(Soon after, a major client complained that our packages weren't running on any of their hosts, right before a major event of theirs. The devs' automation just didn't work for AWS hosts, despite a large percent of our clients using it. So I wrote my own automation that just used selenium, which worked well enough to get things installed before the event. Afterwards, I was told that I had too much access, and that if I ever went to the press about the issues we had, that all of my coworkers would be fired once the client sued. Good times.)

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#54
post #24

The article seems to answer the question right up front. > as we’ve gotten richer and built more technology, we’ve developed a machine not for ending our wants, not for fulfilling them, but for generating new ones, new needs, new desires, new forms of status competition. > You can’t solve the problem of scarcity with our current system because our current system is designed to generate endlessly the feeling of more s…

I hear this trope all the time, that if I just avoided my Starbucks and IPhone, Netflix and Spotify subscriptions, I could live like a King on 10 hours per week job, in our modern land-of-plenty utopia. But that's baloney. A 3BR average home in my city is now 6x median income, and that's with average households being 2 full-time workers instead of 1. And this isn't some 3k sq ft McMansion - another common strawman -…

Yep.. this article is trope trope trope city, don't bother.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#55
post #10

Why do many millionaires and billionaires continue to work super hard? People on TV, people in power, they are set for life financially and yet they still work. It's because just like the rest of us - it's what we do. We don't know how not to work without feeling like we should be doing something 'productive'. It's more cultural than anything else.

You could not miss the point harder.

You are in bubble if you think people are working harder just to feel more productive.

> Just like the rest of us

? who exactly do you only include in your sense of "us"?

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our current system is designed Do people really believe this language is accurate or likely to be helpful? What are we going to do, locate the designer and thwart their evil plan? Or attempt to locate the blueprint? It seems to me that this kind of wording gives way too much credit to human consciousness.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

Mandelmus that is a lot of meaningless words to avoid the recognition that there are systematic objectives in play to repress others. "collective design" is stupid fancy term and you will look dumb saying that in person to anyone in real life.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#57

Well, it’s easy to see the result. There are plenty of countries with high unemployment (especially among youth). Take Greece for example. Their economy isn’t doing so great relative to a country with high employment - Canada, USA, Germany, France, UK. Work hard if you want to have the highest standard of living.

The Greeks work the longest hours in the EU. A lot of it is back breaking agricultural work.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

> it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures So you don't suppose there's much unconsciously created and refined structure to it? We hear so much about anxiety and pressure being rampant in modern society. I just wonder why mention of these (and other, unwanted, disavowed) forces is always left out of all the design talk. It seems to me to be the perfect setup for the worst parts…

He obviously doesn't. He is leaning hard on his highly questionable algorithmic narrative and has no actual clue on how real life works for many people or any exposure to it off his keyboard.

It is sad for everyone really knowing these people exist.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our current system is designed Do people really believe this language is accurate or likely to be helpful? What are we going to do, locate the designer and thwart their evil plan? Or attempt to locate the blueprint? It seems to me that this kind of wording gives way too much credit to human consciousness.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

Mandelmus

blah blah blah. Stop. Think like a human capable of empathy and less like an algorithm for once. Society is not as simple as the hardest problem you have or will ever have to think about. And guess what, you would not pass that interview.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#60
post #10

Why do many millionaires and billionaires continue to work super hard? People on TV, people in power, they are set for life financially and yet they still work. It's because just like the rest of us - it's what we do. We don't know how not to work without feeling like we should be doing something 'productive'. It's more cultural than anything else.

It would be interesting to know how many do continue to work. We would only hear about the ones that do continue to do visible things, it could be the case that 99% simply retire.
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