Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

insidethegames.biz

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 643 posts

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#51

Post by trainsplanes »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender.

Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian subcontinent and culturally related areas have hijra. They're not seen as the same as women, but they're not seen as men either. They're something else, and it's okay.

I've also seen a lot of westerners trying to push their ideas of gender globally and getting enraged when it doesn't fit. Some people get enraged when, for example, Thai kathoey aren't simply referred to as women, but for a lot of those people in Thailand, they don't see themselves as identical to women. So while trying to stop people from misgendering people, they overstep and misgender people who weren't being misgendered.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#52

Post by eric4smith »

Yup - finally this has reached the point where gender politics crashes into reality.

I’m not against any gender doing what they wish.

But really, the point is when you (by nature) have testosterone coursing through your bloodstream… even if you transitioned, by the very nature of things you have an advantage of strength, agility, speed and desire over your female peers.

As much as we would love to believe it, men are wildly physically different from women. And that’s how nature intended it for whatever reasons nature intended.

You can see it in the sports stats very clearly for every sport where women and men compete.

Men and woman are not the same and can never be. Each has strengths and weaknesses which make them fit very well together.

I understand the need to transition. But sports is one of those examples that we can’t put our head in the sand and believe we live in a world of make-believe.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#53

Post by slg »

kazinator wrote: post #20

I think sports categories should be chromosome strings. "XX division", "XY world record". "XXY 400 m finals", "XYY long jump trials", ... Gender identity doesn't factor into it at all; the words "man", "woman" should not be used. Problem solved; you don't get to wedge yourself into competition with XX persons if you're XY.

At what levels would this apply? Would we actually blood test 14 year olds?

What about trans men who where assigned female at birth? Are they allowed to take testosterone and still compete against XX women?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#54

Post by unrealhoang »

Theory5 wrote: post #25
JoeyBananas wrote: post #18

What is the argument in favor of allowing transgenders to compete in female sports? Does anyone actually defend this decision?

Why wouldn't people support transgendered people able to be the gender they wish and being able to do so in all possible aspects? Be they transwomen wanting to play female sports, or transmen wanting to play male sports (which you oddly leave out of your question).

Because it's cheating with unfair advantage? Transmen wanting to play male sports is left out intentionally because it's the highest level of competition of human being. Male sports became male sports simply because female could not compete and it's unfair for female, any human think they can compete at that level is welcome to try, there won't be any complains.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#55

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

Theory5 wrote: post #27
pessimizer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you're fine with excluding people who were born with the physical characteristics historically associated with the word "woman" from all sports, that will work. I don't think that can be the woke position, though. Women's sports are generally a carve-out. Women can't compete with men in most sports. Because of that, I don't think that women should be excluded from men's sports. "Men's sports" are just spor…

So your argument is that men are inherently superior to women in all physical aspects? Yea, no bias there...

All physical aspects? No probably not, the movements and motions that make up almost all sports? Yes, and that’s just reality.

I am struggling to come up with any that women as a generalized block might be naturally better at. Maybe some fineness movements like some forms of dance or balance.

Another user above nailed it, this is a newly self-inflicted problem.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#56

Post by throw0101a »

jml7c5 wrote: post #46
JoeyBananas wrote: post #18

What is the argument in favor of allowing transgenders to compete in female sports? Does anyone actually defend this decision?

At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". I could write more on the arguments both sides present, but that's the crux of it.

> At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman".

For the supporters of trans-women being women, is there a canonical / generally accepted list of criteria which would classify people "objectively" as a woman? If there is such a thing as a group of people that can be called "women", how would membership in that group be established?

I.e., what really is a woman?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#57

Post by stOneskull »

trainsplanes wrote: post #51
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

like in Samoa, they've always had the 3rd gender, Fa’afafine.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#58

Post by stOneskull »

slg wrote: post #53
kazinator wrote: post #20

I think sports categories should be chromosome strings. "XX division", "XY world record". "XXY 400 m finals", "XYY long jump trials", ... Gender identity doesn't factor into it at all; the words "man", "woman" should not be used. Problem solved; you don't get to wedge yourself into competition with XX persons if you're XY.

At what levels would this apply? Would we actually blood test 14 year olds? What about trans men who where assigned female at birth? Are they allowed to take testosterone and still compete against XX women?

why not trans athletics? a separate group.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#59

Post by slg »

eric4smith wrote: post #52

Yup - finally this has reached the point where gender politics crashes into reality. I’m not against any gender doing what they wish. But really, the point is when you (by nature) have testosterone coursing through your bloodstream… even if you transitioned, by the very nature of things you have an advantage of strength, agility, speed and desire over your female peers. As much as we would love to believe it, men are…

>by the very nature of things you have an advantage of strength, agility, speed and desire over your female peers.

By the very nature of things LeBron James has an advantage of strength, agility, and speed over me. (no clue why you included desire in your comment)

Basically every elite athlete is born with a genetic predisposition to be better at their sport than the average person. It takes a lot of determination and training to reach that full potential, but let's not pretend that people are born on equal footing.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#60

Post by babesh »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

There are many disadvantages/advantages that various groups face/possess. It is ideological which ones we choose to elevate.

Genes for height, genes for fast twitch muscles, testosterone, etc… aren’t the same for different groups. Some of these disadvantages are just as insurmountable.

Many sports are closed to poor people. Equestrian, sailing, etc… aren’t sports for the poor.

Richer countries often have better technology (see those Nike shoes and the swimsuits that were banned).

We are just in the land of competing interests.

Post reply on HN