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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#51

Post by open-source-ux »

Although the EU is a marketplace of 27 countries, it is not a digitally homogeneous marketplace. Adoption and acceptance of digital tools varies by country. Language is also important - the tech giants localise their apps and tools. But many software companies in larger European countries (France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc) concentrate on their home country first before they focus on international reach. That makes sense. In smaller countries, where the software market is also smaller, software companies have a more international outlook.

I am struggling to think of European success stories in the traditional desktop app space - apps that have international reach and name recognition. I can only think of a handful desktop apps:

- Sketch (Netherlands)

- Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher (UK)

- Cinema4D (Germany)

Who else enjoys international success for their desktop apps? What about SaaS?

The apps above specialise in a particluar field (design and 3D animation), but missing are any apps in the "office productivity" category which seem completely dominated by tech giants like Microsoft and Google.

Note: I purposely did not mention SAP because no-one looks to SAP as a source of inspiration. Their enterprise apps are expensive and clunky.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#52

Post by throwaway210222 »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

> I take offence at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination."

Why then did Airbus put their VC arm [1] right slap-bang in the middle of Silicon Valley?

Note. In this case, its Europe bringing/managing the capital - they are choosing - all by themselves - where to find the talent.

[1] https://airbusventures.vc/

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#53

Post by zhdc1 »

gabaix wrote: post #16

If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, and to also offer that for free. I can’t help thinking of Qwant, the alternative privacy-aware European search engine. Their financial standing is so dire that this week they had to ask money from Huawei. [1] [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/french-search-engine-qw…

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, and to also offer that for free

It already does. Look at the very large number of open source projects (like Linux) that originated or received substantial contributions from continental European volunteers.

What Europe doesn't have is a strong VC infrastructure or a large density of software engineers in any given location to simplify growth scaling.

Some of these are changing. Whether they will change fast enough to compete in software is another story, but it's very likely that Europe will be better positioned to take advantage of the next tech revolution. You can already see this in biotech.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#54

Post by eldaisfish »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #12
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round.

I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe and many of their older firms have struggled to innovate as technology has spread across the globe. There is a good reason why a fast moving industry like tech has taken root in the US while Europe as a whole is playing catch up.

The US will solve its problems, i have full faith in that country's ability to rise to the challenge as they have done numerous times in the past. Europe's problems with tech innovation run deep and go beyond simply vacation days and worker rights. Look no further than the current spree of tech regulation. I wish more countries did that but there is a fundamental problem - the EU is trying to legislate without having a good alternative.

My prediction - If the US resolves its immigration system and allows more talent to flow in without having to worry about a visa, European skilled immigration is toast.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#55

Post by MatthewMcDonald »

imNotTheProb wrote: post #34
jacob2484 wrote: post #27

Europe lacks the US bankruptcy laws which encourage risk-taking that is needed in this space

They don't have LLCs?

I don't know about the bankruptcy laws, but Germany's GMBH (similar to an LLC) requires 25k in capital to get started.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#56

Post by chrisseaton »

grishka wrote: post #40
w4rh4wk5 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'd appreciate such a law, I doubt it would work in practice. First-party can turn it into a cat-and-mouse game where they'll introduce some minor changes that require third-party apps to be updated over and over again. We've seen this happen with some education related app / system in Sweden where people built a better third-party app / client. Finding a decent, enforceable solution this way is certainly not t…

Mandate that every API version that introduces breaking changes remains available for X years. Big companies do this anyway because there always are people using outdated first-party apps.

> Mandate that every API version that introduces breaking changes remains available for X years.

This is the kind of insane regulation that holds Europe back - it’s the problem not the solution.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#57

Post by jiofih »

est31 wrote: post #41
ballooney wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really technology though now is it. They’re pushing the boundaries of capitalism and morality but not technology. It’s been ages since Silicon Valley was about silicon. Almost all the current energy of the valley is in surveillance/ad-tech. Maybe the odd rocket as a fig-leaf.

Where are the HQs of Qualcomm, AMD, Intel, Nvidia located? Yes, everyone talks about Uber et al and indeed those companies barely add innovative ideas compared to the innovation that is needed to increase a CPU's performance. Uber et al instead mainly do a better job at extracting money from their extremely good market positions than the hardware companies do.

Erm… a lot of the “pushing the boundaries” of technology happens at the foundries in South Asia, and equipment providers in the Netherlands.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#58

Post by zhdc1 »

klaaz0r wrote: post #46
gabaix wrote: post #16

If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, and to also offer that for free. I can’t help thinking of Qwant, the alternative privacy-aware European search engine. Their financial standing is so dire that this week they had to ask money from Huawei. [1] [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/french-search-engine-qw…

Raising capital is getting easier but still nothing compared to the US. If we want change we need more capital to make competing software. If my competitor from SV has 10M in the bank and I can only raise 500k in Europe how do I compete? The end users doesn't care that much.

This apparently isn't as much of an issue anymore, although there are supposedly other constraints on scaling.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#60

Post by eldaisfish »

zhdc1 wrote: post #53
gabaix wrote: post #16

If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, and to also offer that for free. I can’t help thinking of Qwant, the alternative privacy-aware European search engine. Their financial standing is so dire that this week they had to ask money from Huawei. [1] [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/french-search-engine-qw…

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, and to also offer that for free It already does. Look at the very large number of open source projects (like Linux) that originated or received substantial contributions from continental European volunteers. What Europe doesn't have is a strong VC infrastructure or…

what Europe also doesn't have is a true single market. It has fractured markets, each with a different language, different legal requirements and so on.

For all the disagreements here, look at where people move. Only around 5% of EU citizens live and work in an [edit: EU] country other than their own and a large slice of that is people from the east moving west. Only a sliver is highly skilled work and the majority is semi-skilled or low-skilled. The EU loves to boast about how freedom of movement of people is an important pillar but getting it to work over the long term is still a bureaucratic nightmare.

Meanwhile, the US continues to vacuum up talent from across the world despite an utterly broken immigration system. Heck, even Canada is a top destination for talent due to its proximity to the US.

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