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Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

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Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#51

Post by epoch_100 »

npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

Stanford student here. You’re right that there aren’t a ton of dedicated ethics classes within the CS department (though there are many tech-oriented ethics courses around the university).

That being said, there has been a major push recently to _embed_ ethics inside the intro sequence.[1] All of the major intro classes (106A, 106B, 107, and 109, to name just a few) have dedicated ethics components.

[1] https://hai.stanford.edu/news/building-ethical-computational...

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#52

Post by user3939382 »

npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

I've been asked to do things I was ethically conflicted about. What I learned is that the best way to be ethical is to be rich, because telling your boss you refuse to do things is easier said than done when you have a family to support.

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#53

Post by anitil »

rawtxapp wrote: post #42
npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

FWIW, I've never seen any value whatsoever in these ethics classes (note: I'm not saying it's not an important topic, it's extremely important). The hypotheticals and situations presented and discussed in many of them are very similar to yearly mandatory classes we have to take at FAANG (and many other workplaces I assume) and it boils down to having a checkbox that says "I'm not stupid". Real world ethics is much mo…

The one ethics course I took as an EE undergrad taught me exactly one lesson - that the whistleblower always has their life ruined, and even ones who (in the US) have received significant payments typically regret it.

I think it's the reverse of the lesson they were trying to teach.

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#54

Post by Laremere »

rawtxapp wrote: post #42
npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

FWIW, I've never seen any value whatsoever in these ethics classes (note: I'm not saying it's not an important topic, it's extremely important). The hypotheticals and situations presented and discussed in many of them are very similar to yearly mandatory classes we have to take at FAANG (and many other workplaces I assume) and it boils down to having a checkbox that says "I'm not stupid". Real world ethics is much mo…

I had a required ethics course for my CS degree. I can't recall anything from it. I also took a one day ethics course at a FAANG that was excellent. Far better than a "I'm not stupid" checkbox. I think both of these are true:

- Ethics should be a required course for CS.

- CS classes in general do a poor job of tracking well with the industry. Fine for some things (eg, theory), but awful for others (eg, any Software Engineering course which touches on waterfall.)

For those who have missed out, here's an ethics course in the size of a paragraph:

Most engineering ethics focus on life and death, such as making sure your bridge doesn't collapse; Most software is not a matter of life and death, so ethics may seem irrelevant. However, the incredible power of technology means your design choices will have an impact on the lives of many. Seeing red lines where you need to tell your employer no is important, but everyday ethical thinking will find problems other approaches to design will be blind to. This in turn will make better products, and increase your value to your employer. So throw an "ethics" section in your design doc, and ask the question "Does this technology as designed hurt any groups of people with specific characteristics?" You might find that your camera app needs better calibration for dark skin tones, that your UI elements are too hard to use for women with large fingernails or people with minor motor disabilities, or perhaps that one of the JS libraries your considering is very large, and will make a much worse experience for people with rural and slow internet. So simply stop, think, and approach your design from the perspective of different cultures, races, religions, ages, genders, and life circumstances.

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#56

Post by aeyes »

latenightcoding wrote: post #14

as a self taught individual I always find it outstanding how much things they are able to pack in a CS degree and how fast people forget all this stuff after graduation. Like how many of your coworkers from top CS schools remember most of the material in their compilers, cryptography, comp bio courses? EDIT: To clarify, I'm not criticizing this approach, I think it's great to expose students to as many subfields as p…

What university has taught me is to not give up and to keep looking for the solution, no matter how hard the problem is and how little I know. Sometimes there was no choice but to crunch hard math problems for endless hours. Most people give up too easily when they have no natural interest for the type of problem they are facing.

Do I make use of all the material I was shown? No. But it is really nice to have that universal background which, for the majority, I would never have studied on my own. You could ask the same question about middle school or high school - do you really need to know about biology, language or arts to be successful? Do you remember many details? Of course not; general knowledge is still incredible valuable.

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#57

Post by npunt »

epoch_100 wrote: post #51
npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

Stanford student here. You’re right that there aren’t a ton of dedicated ethics classes within the CS department (though there are many tech-oriented ethics courses around the university). That being said, there has been a major push recently to _embed_ ethics inside the intro sequence.[1] All of the major intro classes (106A, 106B, 107, and 109, to name just a few) have dedicated ethics components. [1] https://hai.s…

Thanks that's really good to hear, embedding and repeating the theme throughout different courses really is the best way to build ethical awareness and mindset.

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#58

Post by npunt »

junar wrote: post #43
npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

CS 181W/182W is pretty close to a required class for a Stanford CS major. There are "Technology in Society" and "Writing in the Major" requirements, and taking one of those classes is the simplest way to satisfy both. https://ughb.stanford.edu/courses/approved-courses/technolog... https://undergrad.stanford.edu/programs/pwr/courses/writing-...

Ah good to know, happy its at least a soft req!

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#59

Post by _delirium »

npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

Having the computer science department, specifically, offer more ethics classes is controversial and has gone different ways at different universities. It may seem like an obvious win if you care about society, but many people interested in tech ethics (esp. those who don't consider themselves computer scientists) think it pushes in the wrong direction as far as systems and institutions go.

At one place I've taught, there was quite a bit of pushback from ethicists against the CS department expanding ethics education in its departmental courses. They viewed this as part of a "CS eats everything" trend that would hollow out humanities and social science departments, as well as diminish the role of a broad liberal education codified in the core non-major-specific curriculum. Instead, they preferred CS to stick to more technical classes, but simultaneously were pushing to include at least one ethics course as part of the gen-ed requirement that all students have to take, with ideally a 2nd course more tailored to type of major. In any case, courses taught by social scientists or philosophers, not by CS profs with a CS course number.

Some of this is just university turf warring, but I think some reflects real differences in opinion on how to structure things. Particularly in the U.S. version of university education, where majors are not as dominant a proportion of total course requirements as in some countries. (Depending on the university, courses in your major are something like 35-60% of the total.)

Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021

#60

Post by LanceH »

npunt wrote: post #39

Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…

Ethics required for a degree, sure.

Ethics required for CS in particular, no.

There is nothing special about a CS degree which requires an ethics course, and this is even if one conflates CS with software development.

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