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When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

theguardian.com

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Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#51

Post by yboris »

bombcar wrote: post #12
chriskanan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a voracious consumer of fiction, but somehow critical reading of Lord of the Flies knocked that out of me in sophomore high school English. I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise.

This is the fate of much good literature - forcing recalcitrant high schoolers to dissect something that doesn’t talk to them which can result in a life-long hatred.

I was turned off from fiction in high school because I thought "we are being told to read the best of what the world had to offer, and most of this is shit".

Turns out there are great fiction books out there - took me a while to unlearn the bias.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#52

Post by souprock »

chriskanan wrote: post #5
Zamicol wrote: post #2

My high school's district required students to read The of Lord of the Flies. My freshmen English teacher hated the book so much he broke district requirements and told my class he was giving everyone A's on that assignment. He asked the class to read any substitute book in its place. To this day I still consider him to be a wise teacher.

I used to be a voracious consumer of fiction, but somehow critical reading of Lord of the Flies knocked that out of me in sophomore high school English. I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise.

We now have proof that it really is "going far beyond the author's intention". Texas licensed a poem for a standardized test. The poem's author was still alive, and was unable to "correctly" answer test questions about the meaning of the poem.

So yes, the English teachers really are spouting nonsense, and we have proof.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#53

Post by mythrwy »

Syonyk wrote: post #14
chriskanan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a voracious consumer of fiction, but somehow critical reading of Lord of the Flies knocked that out of me in sophomore high school English. I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise.

> I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise. That was literally my entire high school honors English program. You must interpret everything, to the satisfaction of the English teacher, or else. It quite reliably took people who absolutely loved reading and made them hate boo…

I remember being stunned in high school that people would get degrees and an entire semester would be devoted to finding hidden symbolic meanings that authors in many cases obviously didn't intend.

This was back when you could read Huck Finn. The teacher droned on and for over a week about how it was a symbolic journey of a boys growth towards manhood, how Huck was on the metaphorical river journey of overcoming racism. I said no, I didn't think that was what the story was about. It was just a story, in a certain time, in a certain place, meant to entertain, not to enlighten. She got really mad.

So I opened up the intro to Huck Finn where Twain writes the following:

* “Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot. BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR per G.G., CHIEF OF ORDNANCE”` *

I read it out loud in the class and said I didn't believe he was joking. He had foreseen the possibility of people like her arising and attempted to preempt it! I'll never forget her standing there with her mouth open and no answer.

There is deeply symbolic literature, no argument. But all of it clearly is not. And interpretation of symbolism in many cases is summoned directly from thin air. Turns out it's an entire profession!

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#54

Post by frosted-flakes »

trhway wrote: post #38
Clewza313 wrote: post #35

From the other end of the spectrum, a famous case of (adults) getting shipwrecked and going batshit insane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavia_(1628_ship)

The Bounty mutineers' settlement on an uninhabited island also comes to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny_on_the_Bounty#Pitcairn

Imagine having that as your family history. There are still 50 or so descendants still living on Pitcairn today.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#55

Post by shannifin »

Regardless of whether its outlook was positive or negative, I thought Lord of the Flies was too plot-driven and heavy handed with ridiculous character motivations (or lack thereof).

Anyway, would be really cool to see a film of this story; I'm disappointed it hasn't been made yet!

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#56

Post by mrslave »

freehrtradical wrote: post #10
rossdavidh wrote: post #4

It's not quite as simple as "it works like 'Lord of the Flies' or it doesn't". Nicholas Christakis, in his book "Blueprint", devotes a chapter to a database that he and his grad students made of shipwrecks, where the survivors lived long enough, in enough isolation, that they had to more or less put together a temporary society. There were lots of cases where they turned on each other, and lots of cases where they di…

These are the type of fascinating comments that keep me coming back to HN. Thank you.

Book recommendations are especially high points for me. Thank you GP.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#57

Post by antran22 »

souprock wrote: post #52
chriskanan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a voracious consumer of fiction, but somehow critical reading of Lord of the Flies knocked that out of me in sophomore high school English. I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise.

We now have proof that it really is "going far beyond the author's intention". Texas licensed a poem for a standardized test. The poem's author was still alive, and was unable to "correctly" answer test questions about the meaning of the poem. So yes, the English teachers really are spouting nonsense, and we have proof.

There also is a similar story of such in my country. There was this guy who wrote a short and it was included in the national textbook. The guy's son (or grandson, I can't recount exactly) was assigned to analyse that short and the author, out of curiosity, made the kid submitted his analysis instead. The teacher even went as far as commenting "You don't understand the author's intention at all". Which really make us think how absurd literary education can really go.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#58

Post by anitil »

rossdavidh wrote: post #4

It's not quite as simple as "it works like 'Lord of the Flies' or it doesn't". Nicholas Christakis, in his book "Blueprint", devotes a chapter to a database that he and his grad students made of shipwrecks, where the survivors lived long enough, in enough isolation, that they had to more or less put together a temporary society. There were lots of cases where they turned on each other, and lots of cases where they di…

He was a guest on the 'Singal Minded' [0] podcast a while back as well and talked about his research.

[0] https://singalmindedconvos.fireside.fm/7 I use the RSS feed but that's the link to the exact episode

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#59

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #7
beachy wrote: post #3

That's a wonderful story and and an uplifting rebuttal to Lord of the Flies. But to be fair, six Tongan boys were probably far hardier and well equipped than the typical British schoolboy of that time would have been. It seems they thought nothing of stealing a fishing boat and heading to sea, and they most likely had abundant life skills already - they basically relocated from life on one pacific island to another.…

> So a great story but I don't know how much can be extrapolated from it about human behaviour in general. Given that this really happened, a lot. Lord of the Flies came out of the fantasy of an English superintendent. Yet, it has permeated our culture as a cautionary tale about human behavior. It is 100% fiction. I’d like to recommend Humankind by Rutger Bregman - a wonderful book dismantling the toxic narratives we…

> "Lord of the Flies came out of the fantasy of an English superintendent."

One would think that a schoolmaster would have excellent insight into the behavior of children and young adults.

In any case, a quick look at the commonness of bullying (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_that_have_bee...) should quickly persuade anyone that Lord of the Flies, despite being fiction, is not all that unrealistic.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#60

Post by stephenhuey »

mythrwy wrote: post #53
Syonyk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it was all the deeper meaning analysis I was forced to do moreso than the book. It just seemed like we were going far beyond the author's intention in a joyless analysis exercise. That was literally my entire high school honors English program. You must interpret everything, to the satisfaction of the English teacher, or else. It quite reliably took people who absolutely loved reading and made them hate boo…

I remember being stunned in high school that people would get degrees and an entire semester would be devoted to finding hidden symbolic meanings that authors in many cases obviously didn't intend. This was back when you could read Huck Finn. The teacher droned on and for over a week about how it was a symbolic journey of a boys growth towards manhood, how Huck was on the metaphorical river journey of overcoming raci…

While some may analyze beautiful literature into oblivion and I feel your pain, I can’t agree with you on Huck Finn. My interpretation of the intro you quoted is very different from yours.

Mark Twain went out of his way to highlight barbaric racism on rubber plantations in the Congo by writing a satirical pamphlet to try to get the word out:

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/62739

Even though he masterfully wove his beliefs into the underlying fabric of Huck Finn, I am sure he wished to subtly communicate important truths while spinning a really delightful tale.

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