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Different browsers see different colors

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Re: Different browsers see different colors

#51

Post by jdashg »

mmcclure wrote: post #3

(Mux founder here, but adding some additional community bits to the conversation) Probably unsurprisingly, the (honestly absurd world of) color is a pretty consistent topic among video engineers. Color theory is one of those areas that people working directly with it see it as a completely unsolved problem, and everyone else largely takes it for granted. This is a small sample size, but these are all talks just from…

I would say that much of it is actually solved in theory, just not in practice. (I.e. we know what it should display, but browsers get it wrong still) There are both outstanding issues with browsers being accidentally wrong/incomplete (e.g. both Firefox and Chrome have issues with full-range videos displaying incorrectly, just with different videos), and also with various implementations deviating from standards to "do the right thing" (though this is also a central dilemma of hdr display/tone-mapping).

There are definitely cases where it's clear what we (as browsers) are supposed to do, but some implementations have chosen to err on the side of user preference rather than correctness. I hope we can move that needle back towards "implement the specs". There's no good reason for any 601- or 709-marked content to display incorrectly in the year 2021.

Unfortunately, if you don't mark the videos, that's on you though. Fwiw Firefox generally does follow Chrome in inferring unmarked bt601/709 based on size: https://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/rev/1df3b4b4d27d413675...

Honestly I would rather issue warnings in these cases rather than silently guess.

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#52

Post by jdashg »

KONAir wrote: post #29
mmcclure wrote: post #3

(Mux founder here, but adding some additional community bits to the conversation) Probably unsurprisingly, the (honestly absurd world of) color is a pretty consistent topic among video engineers. Color theory is one of those areas that people working directly with it see it as a completely unsolved problem, and everyone else largely takes it for granted. This is a small sample size, but these are all talks just from…

(I hate having to make these statements but I am not trolling) I was told search for "perfect" parity across users was in vain because perception of colour varied too much, from blood sugar level to physiology and etc. What is the true benefit of going after this on software side? I mean I am not understanding the difference it causes on artistic statement or emotional impact. I understand and support "true colour" a…

One of the major user stories is "I have CSS and a video on my page, and my colors should match".

Another is the desire for product photos to look relatively true-to-life, so you don't order something and it's too dark, or too red, etc.

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#53

Post by Daemon404 »

jdashg wrote: post #51
mmcclure wrote: post #3

(Mux founder here, but adding some additional community bits to the conversation) Probably unsurprisingly, the (honestly absurd world of) color is a pretty consistent topic among video engineers. Color theory is one of those areas that people working directly with it see it as a completely unsolved problem, and everyone else largely takes it for granted. This is a small sample size, but these are all talks just from…

I would say that much of it is actually solved in theory, just not in practice. (I.e. we know what it should display, but browsers get it wrong still) There are both outstanding issues with browsers being accidentally wrong/incomplete (e.g. both Firefox and Chrome have issues with full-range videos displaying incorrectly, just with different videos), and also with various implementations deviating from standards to "…

It's been my experience that part of the reason browsers get stuff wrong even when it's clear what to do, is that entirely different teams work on parts of the browser that all need a poper color pipeline, and while one team will learn and do it correctly, the new team working on the diffrent part has to go through the same process again.

You can see this, for example in Firefox's image pipeline which seems to assume everything is 601 (because JPEG), and this means 709 AVIFs won't render correctly (and are thus off by default currently).

Or in Chrome, the MediaRecorder API will create HD H.264 streams that are untagged, and are 601. Which Chrome then assumes is 709 based off the res.

Or, also in Chrome, the WebCodecs team not having talked to the Media Team, seemingly (?) before starting work on what kind of buffer gets returned to the user, and what the semnatics of its color are. (I think this is resolved now, though - this was a year or two back when they engaged with VideoLAN over this API)

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#55

Post by munk-a »

lattalayta wrote: post #15
mmcclure wrote: post #3

(Mux founder here, but adding some additional community bits to the conversation) Probably unsurprisingly, the (honestly absurd world of) color is a pretty consistent topic among video engineers. Color theory is one of those areas that people working directly with it see it as a completely unsolved problem, and everyone else largely takes it for granted. This is a small sample size, but these are all talks just from…

Agreed, digital color can be a huge rabbit hole once you start understanding all of the pieces involved. Reminds me of one of my favorite xkcd comics (the alt text is particularly relevant here) https://xkcd.com/1882/

I've always found it interesting that XKCD uses a slightly beige background color in all of the comics.

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#56

Post by munk-a »

jameshart wrote: post #43
rorykoehler wrote: post #2

Screens also display colours differently. Trying to get the perfect colour is futile in the same way trying to get pixel perfect web designs is.

These issues are much less about wanting the color that shows up on the user’s screen to precisely match the color the designer intended, and far more about making sure that if you send the same color to display on the same screen via PNG, WEBM, WebGL and CSS, that they should end up looking the same. If you’ve got an embedded video that has inter titles whose background color is the same corporate red as your webpag…

We are losing the ability to ignore device coloration though - since some activities are intended to be carried out on multiple displays at once (i.e. a phone and monitor or switch with tv display). Being consistent across devices is beginning to matter and is an incredibly hard problem to solve.

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#57

Post by z2trillion »

recursive wrote: post #47
mncharity wrote: post #45

> Most people know some basics of color theory. [...] And many people know that specific colors are really just wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum. [...] There are many systems involved to turn an RGB triplet value into a specific wavelength of light. A 5-year old asks you "The Sun is a big hot ball! What color is the ball?". What do you tell them? They ask "And sunlight?" You say? Most first-tier astronomy…

I don't even know what the confusion is. Is the sun not white? It looks white.

I think the confusion arises because because people (the author of the article included) confuse "color" and "spectral color". Spectral colors are what you when you look at light of a single wavelength, e.g. a green 520nm laser pointer. Not all colors are spectral colors, e.g. you'll see purple if you look at a source that produces 600nm and 450nm light, which is a color that can't be produced by any single wavelength.

Coming back to the color of the sun, it (the sun + the atmosphere) emits light over a range of wavelengths, which we usually perceive as white.

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#58

Post by elliekelly »

munk-a wrote: post #55
lattalayta wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, digital color can be a huge rabbit hole once you start understanding all of the pieces involved. Reminds me of one of my favorite xkcd comics (the alt text is particularly relevant here) https://xkcd.com/1882/

I've always found it interesting that XKCD uses a slightly beige background color in all of the comics.

Which browser are you using...?

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#59

Post by munk-a »

elliekelly wrote: post #58
munk-a wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always found it interesting that XKCD uses a slightly beige background color in all of the comics.

Which browser are you using...?

Opera version 4 on a Sun SPARCstation 5 rendered in black and white onto a twenty five year old CRT.

Why - is it not beige to some people?

Re: Different browsers see different colors

#60

Post by rwxsh »

Daemon404 wrote: post #53
jdashg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that much of it is actually solved in theory, just not in practice. (I.e. we know what it should display, but browsers get it wrong still) There are both outstanding issues with browsers being accidentally wrong/incomplete (e.g. both Firefox and Chrome have issues with full-range videos displaying incorrectly, just with different videos), and also with various implementations deviating from standards to "…

It's been my experience that part of the reason browsers get stuff wrong even when it's clear what to do, is that entirely different teams work on parts of the browser that all need a poper color pipeline, and while one team will learn and do it correctly, the new team working on the diffrent part has to go through the same process again. You can see this, for example in Firefox's image pipeline which seems to assume…

I probably shouldn't nitpick here, but Chrome's WebCodecs team is a subset of the Media team. Color simply wasn't the first priority to implement.

What has changed is that more functionality got pulled into WebCodecs as it became clear that existing web platform objects (eg. ImageBitmap) were not an ideal fit.

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