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Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

ingrids.space

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Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly that is both the strength and the weakness. The strength consists in the inability of any one party to dominate the network. The weakness is the noise and ineffectiveness of communication.

I think you miss my point. Whether or not its possible for one party to dominate the network is one of the potential properties of a "distributed" system that people cannot agree on if its required in the definition. For example, napster, TOR and IRC are arguably "distributed" systems where there is a central party that controls the network.

there are different definitions for being distributed.

IRC is a distributed system much like a CDN is distributed, that is spread across the network.

what we are actually interested in is distributed ownership.

email is that, as is the web, but IRC is not

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#52
post #37

The author's definition of what makes a "decentralized application" is too strong and I don't agree that email isn't an example of a decentralized application. She argues that it's not because it's really hard to run your own mail server. To me, "decentralized" doesn't mean every user has to run their own node. It means it's an open network, anyone can join, and there's no centralized control / censorship. You can bu…

Protocols like e-mail, Mastodon and Matrix where the server-to-server protocol is decentralized/peer-to-peer but clients interact with the network through designated servers are generally considered "federated" (which can be either considered as distinct from or a subset of "decentralized") So the author seems to take "decentralized" here to mean "fully decentralized and peer-to-peer", which is indeed an unconvention…

Their definition seems less strong and different than portrayed in your comment. Below is the definition from the article.

"To clarify what I mean by decentralised: applications whose main purpose is fulfilled as part of a network, where that network is not reliant on any preordained nodes. Decentralised applications are also known as “federated”. There is also a more specific term “distributed”, also known as “peer to peer”. I won’t cover the distinction with the more specific terms because it’s not relevant here. I use the word application in a looser sense, to also cover protocols and specifications."

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#53
post #44

I largely nodded along with the post, I think it raised a lot of valid issues about the state of non-profit software Yet, I think one big reason why non-profit solutions are so unpopular is not primarily about marking, but about the terrible, truly terrible UX that most non-profit projects have. As far is I can tell this has (mostly) nothing to do with constrained resources and just with the extremely technical persp…

> As far is I can tell this has (mostly) nothing to do with constrained resources and just with the extremely technical perspectives of the maintainers.

Discord, for example, has 450 full-time employees and is valued at $7 billion. I simply don't see how small non-profit teams, many of which are run primarily by volunteer labor, can compete with that in terms of UX. How many full-time designers or UX folks are working on GIMP or VLC?

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#55

The author's definition of what makes a "decentralized application" is too strong and I don't agree that email isn't an example of a decentralized application. She argues that it's not because it's really hard to run your own mail server. To me, "decentralized" doesn't mean every user has to run their own node. It means it's an open network, anyone can join, and there's no centralized control / censorship. You can bu…

> I don't agree that email isn't an example of a decentralized application. She argues that it's not because it's really hard to run your own mail server.

I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the article. She argues that email is an example of something that is failing as a decentralised application: Google's power over email is too strong. This is very different from claiming that it isn't an example of a decentralised application.

Email and the web are decentralised applications. But they are not the email and the web of the 1990s, when their decentralisation was the killer feature that saw them beat out centralised networks. To try and live on a non-Google/non-Facebook web is like using Linux on the desktop in 2000: it's certainly possible, but it's a bit of a hairshirt.

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#56
Overall too much time spent on the rant for me. To paraphrase: “true” crypto has a long way to go and some large companies have dominated otherwise successful decentralized systems. Yes, no doubt. The last section is the interesting discussion that needs having.

The hypothesis is: capitalism is a hostile environment for user centric (non-abusive) software. I think I tend to agree (despite also believing that as an industry we could do a lot better job of pushing licenses that protect user freedom and help isolate users from abuse back against the domineering capitalists that simply don't understand how software ecosystems work).

I don’t think the author sufficiently defended their hypothesis. I didn't see any discussion about how and why profit motives are misaligned. The piece is missing evidence that supports the jump from “look some big companies have dominated decentralized systems” to “capitalism creates profit motives that must yield the results we’ve seen”. How are we sure the same result wouldn't happen under other economic systems, for example? Thats’s not a defense of capitalism on my part, just a desire to explore this topic much deeper.

Maybe software needs to be designed to resist domination? Or maybe the ability to be dominated has made certain applications successful? Maybe we shouldn't run some software for profit? Maybe we simply need to make it illegal to use persistent identity information in internet-scale applications and data sets beyond authentication and security purposes? Maybe our browsers aren't doing enough to present an “opt in on every use” type of experience for users (I wonder why)?

I do agree there’s an uncomfortable political element to the discussion.

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#57
post #54

Is it only me who thinks his/her case study for blockchain is too vague and does not deliver any valuable message?

You're right. The content to length ratio is extremely low for this blog post. I didn't see clear structure or fully fleshed out arguments.

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#58
post #24

Why do you guys signal boost this stuff to where I end up seeing it? It's just some guy complaining, zero merit.

Hacker News crowd is biased towards being anti-blockchain and knock on effect occurs with decentralization.

Indeed. I suffered numerous occasions of pointless, perhaps malicious downvoting on blockchain threads. Okay, we get it.

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#59

Is there even a single decentralized app that is mainstream? BitTorrent is great but I wouldn’t exactly call it mainstream. I do wish more sites used it for downloads though. I haven’t sat down and researched this, but an argument could be made that inherently a centralized app, who is trusted, available and resilient, will always be superior. Any thoughts?

> Is there even a single decentralized app that is mainstream?

People have mentioned email and the Web as examples; I'd also throw in podcasts. (None of these are "apps," per se, but they're all examples from the article, so.)

> An argument could be made that inherently a centralized app, who is trusted, available and resilient, will always be superior. Any thoughts?

Yes. :)

The article makes the point, in so many words, that a lot of decentralized services end up dominated by a small number of major players. I think this is hard to argue with; yes, there are other service providers competing with the big ones, but that doesn't disprove the point. The most recent figures I can find suggest that Gmail had 43% of the email "market" in 2020; that's not more than everyone else combined, but number two is Yahoo (!) at 26%, with third place Outlook (i.e., the email service Microsoft keeps changing the name of, not the client application) trailing at 6%. Many people who might have been bloggers a bit over a decade ago use Medium or, more likely, just Twitter. (I think Twitter did far more to kill the blog than the death of Google Reader, but that's a different topic.) We can go on.

Where I think the article gets it wrong isn't in its description of the problem, it's in its diagnosis. Partially. I think the author is right in saying that better tooling isn't the problem, but wrong in saying that the profit motive is in "ensuring decentrialized systems fail." The profit motive is, to borrow your apt phrase, in making centralized systems trusted, available, and resilient. GitHub, Google Workspace, and Slack took over as much of the business world as they did because they're not only easier to set up than doing it yourself, they gain the benefits of a tremendous userbase: they're highly available and resilient, they're well-understood, they have lots of integration plugins.

I'd love to see more decentralized/federated systems succeed, but many of them aren't just fiddly and quirky, they're proudly fiddly and quirky. If they're going to take off, we may need to focus less on where we think companies behind centralized services are deviously undermining their decentralized relatives, and focus more on why those services succeeded in the first place.

Re: Why Decentralised Applications Don’t Work

#60
Don't judge the author too harshly. Ingrid presents an overall perspective of the entire field. Yes, some definitions are somewhat skewed, but I'm sure many people see things the same way. In a way, the fact the author wrote the article and we're all reading all these comments, is because we all care about this and we want to see a truly distributed web succeed. So it's ok to try to reason how we get there.

In all honestly, I've had very similar thoughts. As someone who started with BITNET before the Internet, I always believed "the Net" was supposed to level the field, and we no longer have to be "consumers" but rather willing participants capable of innovation, on our own right. I know, how naive.

Where I disagree is in the solution. It's not political. Whenever you think about the Internet, you MUST think global. I've had the chance to visit around 35 countries, and I've seen first hand how governments don't work for people, for the most part.

It comes down to this: we (geeks and nerds) need to get out of our comfort zone and think in terms of user experience. We CAN create amazing things. But we must think about the people using these solutions. People use Dropbox because it's easy, not because it's good. Same for Gmail and other services. If we are not creating solutions that can be used by anyone, in an easy and straightforward fashion, we're not doing our job. If companies don't see value in what we are creating when it could help them tremendously (i.e. IPFS) then WE are doing something wrong.

I think it all comes down to UX.

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