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Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

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Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#51
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an economist, but not taxing corporations leads to increasing income inequality, and gives companies the wrong economic signals. It costs money to run the government -- the court system, the armed forces, the legislatures, the police and fire departments, etc. Companies consume these resources and that cost should be factored into the cost of their products. In fact, it seems pretty obvious to me that especia…

When was the last time you were able to lobby congress to write laws to your liking, or create trade agreements, or author a bill to advantage your financial interests? That's exactly my point. Corporations have all kinds of power and leverage when negotiating with politicians regarding their tax burden. That's what leads to corruption. Corporations don't even exist as anything other than a legal framework. When you…

> I'm suggesting that you bypass the problem by eliminating corporate taxes...

The problem doesn't go away— there are a hundred and one ways that companies can receive favours from the government other than tax breaks: land giveaways, pollution exemptions, utility discounts, trade/tariff deals, infrastructure like highways/rail/fibre being routed in such a way that benefits their locations or supply chains, etc etc.

If your government officials are corrupt or untrustworthy, that's a problem to deal with at the source, not by trying to tie their hands by taking away some of the tools they use to set policy.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#53
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The messenger is relevant, at times, and is at least worth mentioning . I'm skeptical of "everyone agrees with me!" coming from any think tank, left or right. https://taxfoundation.org/case-not-eliminating-corporate-inc... , for example, argues that relying on taxing shareholders instead of the corporation ignores foreign shareholders whose income isn't subject to US taxation. (For similar disclosure, they're general…

>argues that relying on taxing shareholders instead of the corporation ignores foreign shareholders whose income isn't subject to US taxation. They aren't? What about withholding tax?

That's on income, not capital gains.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/nonusresidenttax...

> Nonresident aliens are subject to no U.S. capital gains tax, but capital gains taxes will likely be paid in your country of origin.

> Nonresident aliens are subject to a dividend tax rate of 30% on dividends paid out by U.S. companies.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#54
post #5
post #4

I wonder how much of these "subsidies" are actually tax abatements as opposed to a handout? I am familiar with the Kansas City area: the chart shows Amazon getting $20M for their distribution center in WYCO/KCK whereas they only got $1.8M for their distribution center in Edgerton. Property taxes alone could explain such a massive difference (WYCO property tax rates are ridiculous) and the distribution center is in a…

Virtually every item on the list is categorized as a "tax abatement", "tax deferral", or "tax exemption". I think it's misleading to call those 'subsidies'. As always, the existence of such taxes gives politicians a tool to amplify their corruption and incompetence. The right answer is to take such tools out of politician's hands by ending the taxes in the first place. It feels good to tax a corporation, but it's muc…

Why wouldn't executives just start having their personal transactions and outsized living expenses conducted w/ untaxed corporate revenue? This sounds like fixing a loophole by making the hole so big you can't call it hole anymore ...

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#55
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtually every item on the list is categorized as a "tax abatement", "tax deferral", or "tax exemption". I think it's misleading to call those 'subsidies'. As always, the existence of such taxes gives politicians a tool to amplify their corruption and incompetence. The right answer is to take such tools out of politician's hands by ending the taxes in the first place. It feels good to tax a corporation, but it's muc…

> I think it's misleading to call those 'subsidies'. In ordinary language we all understand that giving someone money and asking for less of their money are not equivalent, but referring to both as subsidies in terms of tax policy is pretty standard. See, for example, the debate about the mortgage interest deduction: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-benefits-tax-subs...

I think there's a strong argument that we should permit the mortgage interest deduction in order to keep owner-occupied real estate on equal footing with commercially-owned real estate (the expenses of which are inherently deductible by profit-seeking corporations).

Otherwise, we create financial hurdles for people to buy houses that don't exist for landlords, which I think is poor policy.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#56
post #32
post #4

I wonder how much of these "subsidies" are actually tax abatements as opposed to a handout? I am familiar with the Kansas City area: the chart shows Amazon getting $20M for their distribution center in WYCO/KCK whereas they only got $1.8M for their distribution center in Edgerton. Property taxes alone could explain such a massive difference (WYCO property tax rates are ridiculous) and the distribution center is in a…

>I wonder how much of these "subsidies" are actually tax abatements as opposed to a handout? Is there a difference? Money is fungible so there's really no difference between a $1M check from the government and $1M in tax abatements.

Many of these abatements are over a period of time making the net-present-value of the abatement lower than the face value, which also provides some insurance against a project failure (whereupon you can stop the future abatements in a way that you can't as easily claw back a check that's already been cashed by a company that’s now bankrupt).

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#57
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the website of a conservative think-tank.

Workers at conservative think-tanks breathe oxygen. Ergo, breathing oxygen is wrong.

Take a quick spin through their "encyclopedia" and see.

Labor unions? Bad! Climate change? Probably good, actually!

Their article on oxygen would be "oxygen is good, always" or "oxygen is bad, always". They don't leave much room for nuance in their encyclopedia, and unsourced assertions of a policies popularity in their writings can probably be treated with a grain of salt.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers at conservative think-tanks breathe oxygen. Ergo, breathing oxygen is wrong.

Take a quick spin through their "encyclopedia" and see. Labor unions? Bad! Climate change? Probably good, actually! Their article on oxygen would be "oxygen is good, always" or "oxygen is bad, always". They don't leave much room for nuance in their encyclopedia, and unsourced assertions of a policies popularity in their writings can probably be treated with a grain of salt.

The thing is the assertion that corporate taxes are bad is incredibly mundane. Not in a pro-pro-big business kind of way but in a pro-everyone kind of way. The problem with corporate taxes is that they are easily dodged via the most mundane write-offs, exchanges and planned for deduction. Corporate taxes are offset by a company by simple hiring a tax lawyer. Individual taxes are far harder to dodge and basically require the individual to abandon his/her country in order to do it, or to cheat by putting them in a dark bank account overseas. This is not a partisan issue. If you want a corporation to pay its taxes, put its taxes on the people who make money off that corporation.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time you were able to lobby congress to write laws to your liking, or create trade agreements, or author a bill to advantage your financial interests? That's exactly my point. Corporations have all kinds of power and leverage when negotiating with politicians regarding their tax burden. That's what leads to corruption. Corporations don't even exist as anything other than a legal framework. When you…

> I'm suggesting that you bypass the problem by eliminating corporate taxes... The problem doesn't go away— there are a hundred and one ways that companies can receive favours from the government other than tax breaks: land giveaways, pollution exemptions, utility discounts, trade/tariff deals, infrastructure like highways/rail/fibre being routed in such a way that benefits their locations or supply chains, etc etc.…

You're missing the point hard. You can still tax the corporation by taxing everyone who earns income from it. You just don't tax the business entity itself.

Re: Subsidies Awarded to Amazon: at least $4.04B and Counting

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a quick spin through their "encyclopedia" and see. Labor unions? Bad! Climate change? Probably good, actually! Their article on oxygen would be "oxygen is good, always" or "oxygen is bad, always". They don't leave much room for nuance in their encyclopedia, and unsourced assertions of a policies popularity in their writings can probably be treated with a grain of salt.

The thing is the assertion that corporate taxes are bad is incredibly mundane. Not in a pro-pro-big business kind of way but in a pro-everyone kind of way. The problem with corporate taxes is that they are easily dodged via the most mundane write-offs, exchanges and planned for deduction. Corporate taxes are offset by a company by simple hiring a tax lawyer. Individual taxes are far harder to dodge and basically requ…

> This is not a partisan issue.

The best way to demonstrate that would be to link to a more neutral source, or sources across the partisan spectrum.

"Here's an op-ed by a conservative think tank about why taxes are bad" is gonna get people expressing very reasonable skepticism.

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