Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 337 posts

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#51

Post by frankbreetz »

gandalfian wrote: post #40

In practice the UK already pays the price for a universal basic income. Most poor people get some sort of tax credit and/or housing benefit. What we don't do is allow people to use it to rise out of poverty. A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits whi…

What you are describing is very different from UBI. With UBI everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. There is nothing universal about what you are describing.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#52

Post by smaryjerry »

alistairSH wrote: post #29
mc32 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By balls, you mean money. Look at the difficulty the service industry has now hiring people who would rather receive government relief and sit around the house than work a marginally better paying job—it’s not like they are using this time to pursue productive hobbies (pursuing their passions)... and look at the inflation and debt we’re incurring from free money

Can you provide some numbers about people taking benefits instead of working? I'm sure there are a small number, but unemployment in the US is currently within a normal range, so I don't see the impact you claim being possible.

I replied with numbers to a different comment but to summarize a person making $30,000 per year was making the equivalent of $49,000 per year instead during the extra $600 per week. Now it is $300 per week only and someone making $30,000 is now still making about $33,000 per year, again without actually having to work or even look. If they do come back they refuse to work more than about 15 hours per week so they can continue to claim unemployment for the rest and get their extra $300 per week.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#53

Post by pietrovismara »

smaryjerry wrote: post #28
akyu wrote: post #8

The 'universal' aspect of UBI is critical, and many of the attempts to test UBI seem to miss this completely. Call it something else in that case.

Like the Oakland program which specifically excludes whites. Or basically every other program that only includes extremely low income people. I suppose it gets the results they want though, which is to show it helps the lives of the people, however as we have seen with this last year of unemployment checks, people just won’t go back to work if they can make almost as much for doing nothing. At our business getting pe…

Have you ever thought that the problem could be with your wages, rather than with the UBI?

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#54

Post by ssharp »

sokoloff wrote: post #38
secondcoming wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the arguments about disincentivising work are, IMO just convenient filler Not sure, I've read articles online about companies in the US struggling to hire because people are being paid more by the government. The counter to this is that companies should pay more. Undoubtedly some could afford to do this, but others... the mom & pop outfits... may not be able to.

In the US, it’s not UBI; it’s unemployment which you lose if you work. If UBI isn’t lost via work (other than via taxes, of course), the same issue does not arise at nearly the same magnitude.

It's a binary choice right now. You either work or you get the enhanced unemployment benefits.

With the extra $300 / week benefit, in my state (Ohio), the total benefit works out to a little under $20 / hour. Note that this is a sliding scale and earning that much would require you have at least that high of a wage previously.

What you end up seeing is a lot of margin in terms of how much someone is willing to give up in working wages to just collect unemployment. There has also been a lot of interest, and even competition, of workers seeking voluntary layoffs for companies that need some staff reduction.

I've heard a number of arguments using this as evidence that UBI will be a huge economic negative because it will reduce the workforce but I'm not sure how this can really be a valid proxy since the unemployment benefits are completely dependent on you not working. It seems pretty reasonable that if people could collect some basic income and also work for an even higher wage, they would.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#56

Post by ssharp »

smaryjerry wrote: post #28
akyu wrote: post #8

The 'universal' aspect of UBI is critical, and many of the attempts to test UBI seem to miss this completely. Call it something else in that case.

Like the Oakland program which specifically excludes whites. Or basically every other program that only includes extremely low income people. I suppose it gets the results they want though, which is to show it helps the lives of the people, however as we have seen with this last year of unemployment checks, people just won’t go back to work if they can make almost as much for doing nothing. At our business getting pe…

UBI isn't unemployment. You could collect UBI and still work.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#57

Post by smaryjerry »

pietrovismara wrote: post #53
smaryjerry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the Oakland program which specifically excludes whites. Or basically every other program that only includes extremely low income people. I suppose it gets the results they want though, which is to show it helps the lives of the people, however as we have seen with this last year of unemployment checks, people just won’t go back to work if they can make almost as much for doing nothing. At our business getting pe…

Have you ever thought that the problem could be with your wages, rather than with the UBI?

Wages are a market. If everyone wants to be something then the wages will be low. The way around it was to hire many more people but for only 15 hours per week so they can all continue collect unemployment (with an extra $300 per week from the federal government).

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#58

Post by dnndev »

The root cause in the US being income inequality. Less people want to spread the wealth and more people expect a version of wealth. UBI is not the blanket solution I think most are expecting. It will open a can of worms.

Give more people better opportunities. Folks don’t want a hand out.

Companies are too big and although do provide some benefits such as lower price in some cases we end up paying for it with lower wages and less opportunities for other entrepreneurs.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#59

Post by wizzwizz4 »

frankbreetz wrote: post #51
gandalfian wrote: post #40

In practice the UK already pays the price for a universal basic income. Most poor people get some sort of tax credit and/or housing benefit. What we don't do is allow people to use it to rise out of poverty. A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits whi…

What you are describing is very different from UBI. With UBI everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. There is nothing universal about what you are describing.

That's the point of the comment. The UK pays the price of UBI without getting the benefits of UBI.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#60

Post by leadingthenet »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #59
frankbreetz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is very different from UBI. With UBI everyone gets a certain amount no matter what. There is nothing universal about what you are describing.

That's the point of the comment. The UK pays the price of UBI without getting the benefits of UBI.

Well, no. Only a small minority of people are on Universal Credit.

I don’t get how this follows, at all.

Post reply on HN