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How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#51
post #35
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is dumb, because the "saltwater" batteries have manganese cathode and titanium phosphate anode... doesn't sound radically different than lithium iron phosphate.

There were a number of fires in boats at the beginning of using lithium batteries that put off many people from using them.

Because "lithium" means a whole category of things. See this mega-thread that was started in 2011 when people will still feeling things out:

* https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f166/lifepo4-batteries-...

The chemistry of LiFePO4 was settled on (versus something that used cobalt, à la Boeing's 787), and the risk of fires has been reduced considerably. You're more likely to have a boat fire from bad DIY electrical cabling and a lack of fusing.

For more than you ever wanted to know about marine electrical/electronics see Jeff Cote's channel:

* https://www.youtube.com/user/pacificyachtsystems/videos

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#52
post #43
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear may be part of our energy future, but security concerns and operating costs make it impractical to put reactors onboard civilian merchant ships. They can't afford to pay multiple armed security guards and trained reactor operators. Plus some countries don't even allow nuclear vessels into their ports. A more realistic solution would be to use land based reactors to manufacture carbon neutral synthetic liquid…

Rather than have one reactor per ship, perhaps you could have just a few ships with reactors? Regular electrically-powered ships would tether themselves to the reactor ship, and they'd cross the ocean in a large convoy. The tether would supply electrical power.

That wouldn't work in any sort of heavy weather. And very few ships follow the same route at the same time for convoys.

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#53
Not so easy.

I did a deep dive into the container ship industry many years ago in order to understand unit economics and how certain technologies could improve the ecologic impact of this massive industry. It was very interesting. I learned a lot.

I see a lot of comments about going electric, hydrogen, solar, sail, some kind of hybrid, etc. I don't think any of this is near any time horizon I can name or recognize.

Why?

Cargo ships use something called "Bunker Fuel" [0].

What is bunker fuel?

Well, to put it simply, it is what's left after you take petroleum and distill it into various grades of gasoline, diesel, industrial oils, etc. It is often referred to as "the bottom of the barrel". Another way to think of it is that bunker fuel is the waste product. Some grades of bunker fuel are so thick you can walk on it and will only flow if heated. This should not come as surprise, asphalt is the next level down and that stuff is solid enough to make roads out of it.

Why did I say "not so easy"?

Because these ships are effectively burning the waste product from the manufacturing process that leads to all the fuels and lubricants we consume in massive quantities.

What does this mean?

If we stopped using bunker fuel next Monday, what would we do with the absolutely massive amounts of bunker fuel produced every year? Think about that for a moment.

Sure, hydrogen and electric sound "clean", but you would have a potentially larger ecologic disaster in having to dump bunker fuel somewhere. The bottom of the barrel isn't going to magically disappear just because we transition cargo ships to something else.

What to do then? It's a tough problem. One solution, maybe, I don't know, is to evaluate how efficiently and cleanly we might be able to burn bunker fuel on land vs. on a ship. My point is that we might be able to extract and use this energy in a super-clean way, to charge batteries or whatever. I haven't studied this at all. I would imagine that if we set out to truly create a super-clean process to burn bunker fuel on land for energy generation it could be a good path forward. I don't know how much better we could do on land (in terms of clean burning) than on a ship. I'd like to think we could do a lot better.

I do think the future is electric, in some form. What I can't see or predict is how we transition from today's reality to that reality. This isn't a case of just having to solve the containership problem, you have to solve the entire oil/fuel ecosystem because, if you don't, you are going to have astronomic amounts of bunker fuel (waste product) to contend with. This is how shifting cargo ships to electric could actually be worse for the environment than letting it be and working to make them as clean as possible. Weird, isn't it?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#54

Not so easy. I did a deep dive into the container ship industry many years ago in order to understand unit economics and how certain technologies could improve the ecologic impact of this massive industry. It was very interesting. I learned a lot. I see a lot of comments about going electric, hydrogen, solar, sail, some kind of hybrid, etc. I don't think any of this is near any time horizon I can name or recognize. W…

Because of new sulphur regulations in 2015, many ships shifted from heavy oils to lighter ones. It's not a huge renovation. Costs more of course.

Ammonia (NH3) is the new promising carbon free fuel for ships.

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#55
post #4

Make it big , get it up out of the water. The larger your ship is the more efficient it can be, and the less of it in the water the less energy is needed to push it. So make big big ships with really really big sails. You want the ships to fly with just the keel in the water to steer against the wind. You might think I'm joking or talking nonsense, but look up Alexander Bell's cellular geodesic kites, and Bucky Fulle…

Well ok. But my limited understanding of material science says no. For now at least. Material strength doesn't scale well to go "properly big big" in the sci-fi sense. OTOH, I am constantly amazed by what material science keeps managing to do, so I have hopes that maybe one day your dream will be true.

Cheers!

Are you familiar with Bucky Fuller's concept of "tensegrity"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

https://mymodernmet.com/tensegrity-architecture/

He pointed out that the struts could recursively be made out of tensegrity structures. Or you can make them out of balloons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensairity

I was being a little coy in my previous comment. The structures I'm thinking of are more like kites than sailing ships. They would "dip a toe" in the water to tack, perhaps, but they would be aerial not marine in nature.

A. Bell lifted a man with his cellular geodesic kites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEA_Cygnet

In any event, I hope my dream does come true one day. :) Cheers!

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#56
post #5

I hope we get rid of cargo ships that burn matter. But sails are too high maintenance to be scalable. Last year, as an experiment I've launched a tiny solar-powered boat ([1]). Ultimately, it was too small and underpowered only making ~900km ([2]) before dying. I hope to build a bigger drone boat next, hopefully with an ability to move up to 1 tonne of cargo. Apparently, it's possible, but (unfortunately) requires ve…

Very cool. How did you communicate with it? Or did you follow it in a larger boat?

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#57
post #56
post #5

I hope we get rid of cargo ships that burn matter. But sails are too high maintenance to be scalable. Last year, as an experiment I've launched a tiny solar-powered boat ([1]). Ultimately, it was too small and underpowered only making ~900km ([2]) before dying. I hope to build a bigger drone boat next, hopefully with an ability to move up to 1 tonne of cargo. Apparently, it's possible, but (unfortunately) requires ve…

Very cool. How did you communicate with it? Or did you follow it in a larger boat?

Iridium RockBlock. Bandwidth costs were insane (~$1/KB).

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#58
post #25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are going to have to think of a different way of accessing the cargo. Cargo ships as currently built cede the entire middle section of the boat to cranes. Cranes they won't see until the end of their voyage, or the beginning of the next. The whole rest of the time you can't use the vertical axis for anything else. Things that slide around tend to break loose in heavy weather, and boats don't stay afloat if the cen…

Fixed sails won't be viable for container and bulk cargo ships due to the need for unobstructed access. They might be able to make limited use of kite type sails for running downwind. Sails could be more viable for tankers and car carriers. Those don't rely on cranes for loading and have more free space on deck.

You could rotate it out of the way in port, assuming you can keep other ships from running into them (I've seen one fixed sale design that collapses like an antenna), but there are wear and tear problems with a mast that is not fixed, aren't there? Especially given the direction and magnitude of the forces we're talking about.

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#59
post #33

A natural gas powered container ship would probably have lower emissions per unit of cargo moved than the proposed "eco" sailing ship, which has low cargo capacity by modern standards. The big problem with cargo ships from a pollution standpoint is that they run on really crappy "bunker oil C", which is about halfway between jet fuel and asphalt. Heavier than seawater. One of the biggest sources of preventable pollut…

Natural gas has its own issues https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422824/natural-gas-infra...

90% of that is burying the lead that leaking methane is an issue. No shit, but moving from Bunker>LSFO>LNG is going to cause a net decrease in GHG emissions. Operators that have to focus on profit margins, not maintaining artificial monopolies can't afford to subsidize leaking equipment. Aliso Canyon caused a substantial investment in methane detection hardware thats in use. Next step is getting E&P co's to pay into a perpetual fund that monitors old wells.

Re: How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?

#60

Does anybody have a good book or good resources for nuclear powered merchant marine? Naively it makes sense that nuclear power could support much larger ships and go much faster than diesel, but i don't know how true that actually is.

https://i.imgur.com/9anWCXD.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/IpYrxLs.jpeg

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