Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#51

Post by dang » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

godelmachine wrote: post #36

If this truly comes to fruition, it would be a prime mover in displacing Chinese global hegemony and stave off its bullish nature. China maintains economic well being by donating the chip market and also the supply chains. The Quad has emerged to dislocate Chinese tyranny in the Indo-Pacific, and US chip takeover will be one of the last strokes in China’s downfall.

This crosses into nationalistic flamewar. We don't want that on HN, regardless of $nation. It leads to predictable, nasty discussion that kills the curious conversation which this site is supposed to be for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#52

Post by _zamorano_ » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

diegocg wrote: post #8

> Some of the world’s biggest chip buyers, including Apple Inc, Microsoft Corp and Alphabet Inc’s Google, are joining top chip-makers such as Intel Corp > to create a new lobbying group to press for government chip manufacturing subsidies None of those companies need subsidies.

If they thought the risk of building a fav and launching a business was reasonable, they'd already have.

They acknowledge the importance of the issue, but are not willing to take risks in a difficult an foreign (to them) business.

So, mostly worthless words.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#53

Post by dang » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

All: this thread got a flash flood of angry-predictable-obvious comments. Please don't post those! They're really bad for this site. (Edit: if you want to see the comments I'm talking about, they're collapsed at the bottom of the page now. Before that, they were the page.)

The issue with such points isn't that they're wrong, it's that they're not interesting. Nothing predictable and obvious is. We want interesting conversation here, and that comes from curiosity. If you're feeling agitation rather than curiosity, please wait until that polarity flips.

The interesting things in a story like this are any diffs from what one would have expected.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

It's a significant move, so there must be interesting diffs. But sometimes one has to hunt for those, or at least wait for them to occur to one. That sort of waiting is key to getting good HN discussion, which is reflective rather than reflexive.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#54

Post by zepto » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #4

How about you spend some of that cash hoard and do it yourself? I would rather the government start dealing with cyber attacks because that's going to affect the east coast something fierce if this crap keeps going. If the government gives money then it better talk to these companies about where their items are produced.

The reason these items are not produced at home is because of government policies.

I agree that they should be the ones to invest in these fabs, but it also makes sense for the government to make sure that is an internationally competitive move for them to make, rather than forcing them to pour water uphill.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#55

Post by sremani » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

This is what bringing back supply chain looks like. I am not against it. What is happening is not great, but you know the whole necessary evil thing.. this is it.

This will start with Tech, but will extend to other domains.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#56

Post by cedilla » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #35

cedilla wrote: post #20

Wealthiest entities on Earth lobbies government for handouts. I'm not even being snarky, this is just a lobby group trying to socialize costs to avoid spending their own money. Explicitly: “Government should refrain from intervening as industry works to correct the current supply-demand imbalance causing the shortage,”. The industry is not stripped for cash at all, so if the government is not expected to steer, why s…

The worst part is that they might get such handouts. I don't understand how, given their mighty fortunes, they haven't achieved 99.9% automation to keep costs as low as in cheap labour countries. If anything I think the EU, US and UK should subsidise research in achieving near full automation. Sucks for low skilled labour but they’ve already been fucked when jobs were moved overseas.

If I understand the situation correctly, the current president is already willing to enact such a law. The lobbying seems to be about pressuring congress into actually passing it. Fair enough, everyone is entitled to lobby for their interests. What I take umbrage with is that they want to turn subsidies into handouts.

It's beyond ironic to call for subsidies but then label oversight as "intervening". Subsidies are interventions. Without a government plan and oversight they are just legalized corruption.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#57

Post by zepto » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

diegocg wrote: post #8

> Some of the world’s biggest chip buyers, including Apple Inc, Microsoft Corp and Alphabet Inc’s Google, are joining top chip-makers such as Intel Corp > to create a new lobbying group to press for government chip manufacturing subsidies None of those companies need subsidies.

Their international competitors have subsidies. If the government doesn’t match that then you are asking these companies to pour water uphill.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#58

Post by dahfizz » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #22

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone who works there should be already paying income taxes. Why the double taxation?

How much tax did Bezos pay on his fortune? Not income tax but capital gains, and probably not as much as you'd expect.

If you want the Bezos's of the world to pay more tax, then lobby for that directly. Using the corporate tax as a proxy for "screw rich people" is distortionary and ineffective.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#59

Post by livueta » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

aksss wrote: post #27

toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been calls for some time to treat semiconductor manufacturing as in the interest of national security. The funding and policy isn't onerous to do so, and "never let a crisis go to waste." Something similar was already done for rare earths [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=rare+earth+us+national+secur...

Something similar was "thought of" for rare earths but I don't think anything practical has come of that yet. Opening new mines in the US is not a process I'd call quick. It's more in the "I'll believe it when I see it" column. You think getting a pipeline across the Midwest is difficult? Just try strip-mining in Alaska. But yeah, if the government is serious about securing supply chains, then it's not enough to have…

I'd have thought the same as you, though I very recently heard some hopeful news on that front: https://www.marketplace.org/2021/04/30/the-u-s-is-trying-to-...

The relevant part is kind of buried but tl;dr: new mines do take a while (but are in the works). Luckily, there are old mines that can be productively restarted:

> “Our mission as a company is to restore the full supply chain,” said James Litinsky, CEO of MP Materials, the new owner of the U.S.’s only rare-earth mine, located in Mountain Pass, in California’s Mojave Desert.

> “We are probably further ahead than people realize.”

> MP Materials restarted the mine in 2017; the previous owner, Molycorp had declared bankruptcy a few years prior.

> “It was mismanaged for some time,” Litinsky said. Mountain Pass’ reserves are particularly rich in rare earths and now supply, in unpurified form, 15% of the rare earths consumed globally each year.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#60

Post by s_dev » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #49

Is this for US companies only? I mean if all they want is Fabs in US surely the funding should be available for TSMC as well? Otherwise why should TSMC invest billions in US while having US government handing out money to American companies competing against TSMC with their own money?

>Otherwise why should TSMC invest billions in US

I don't want to seem politically ignorant but isn't the entire existence of Taiwan is simply dependent on the US wanting it to exist. If the US didn't provide billions in defense -- TMSC would be a Chinese FAB pretty fast. I see your point but I'd imagine the extra layer of geopolitics is propping up this odd situation.