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How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

theatlantic.com

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Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#51

Post by kiba »

qzw wrote: post #36
sashavegas wrote: post #13

Consider old Russian system After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree. The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma. Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there i…

China also has an education system that’s supposed to be based on exam results, yet funny how the scions of high-level officials and billionaires usually end up at the most elite schools. Of course, it’s possible that they all got there on pure merit...

Pure merit means stratification based on unequal access to resources, genes, or upbringing. It isn't surprising that the elite makes it to the top.

Meritocracy isn't exactly egalitarianism.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#52

Post by AlexandrB »

mnouquet wrote: post #15
DubiousPusher wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very troubled by this. Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Local history, news and art you won't find on the internet. You can't read about my town's coal history on wikipedia. A local historian does that. These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. As we squeeze these people down we lose our own selves. We need a…

> Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Do you mean by putting themselves on a pedestal without having experienced life _at_all_ and living in nothing but theories. Yeah, sure. > These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. These days, they are more the people re-writing history to fit a narrative, against any hard evidenc…

> Do you mean by putting themselves on a pedestal without having experienced life _at_all_ and living in nothing but theories. Yeah, sure.

I hope the irony that this describes a large portion of the tech industry is not lost on you.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#53

Post by mgarfias »

sashavegas wrote: post #13

Consider old Russian system After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree. The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma. Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there i…

I don’t mean to sound like an ass (but probably will), but the style of your writing here couple with the subject cracked me up.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#54

Post by ilammy »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #28
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #6

A lot of invention and innovation in the past few decades is focused around doing more with less - e.g IKEA furniture made out of wood shavings vs. real wood years ago, apartments made more efficient and compact vs. big houses years ago, more biking and public transit vs. enough roads to fit everyone years ago. My theory is that on a macro level, the world keeps getting more competitive because we keep on churning ou…

The data very clearly shows the opposite: economic development and rising income levels are very strongly associated with decreasing number of children per mother. Birth rates in nearly all the high income nations are below replacement. Most of the middle and low income countries are on the same path, with central Africa being a notable exception. Before his dead Hans Rosling did some great talks about this sort of t…

> Before his death Hans Rosling did some great talks

You're saying it like his talks got worse after him passing away, lol.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#55

Post by bloaf »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #5
hnzix wrote: post #2

This has become so culturally ingrained that people will casually shame a person for studying an Arts or Humanities degree. "Have fun working at McDonalds you idiot!" An economy is not a society.

I am very troubled by this. Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Local history, news and art you won't find on the internet. You can't read about my town's coal history on wikipedia. A local historian does that. These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. As we squeeze these people down we lose our own selves. We need a…

You don't need a humanities degree to document your local coal mine's history or contribute to your local art culture. You do need a STEM degree if you are going to serve your local community as e.g. a doctor or an engineer.

I'm not commenting on the relative value of the endeavors, just pointing out that there are opportunity costs associated with choosing a humanities degree over a STEM degree in our current environment.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#56

Post by phobosanomaly »

flowerlad wrote: post #43

College admissions in the US are messed up. There is no way for a student to be in control of their destiny through hard work, because there are far too many variables and randomness in college admissions. Ideally what colleges should do is to use a standardized test and go strictly by the results of the standardized test. Standardized tests are not perfect, but if there are flaws in standardized tests then fix them,…

That really depends on what you mean by 'destiny.'

If you go to community college, work hard, and get decent grades you are more-or-less guaranteed a transfer spot at a good state school.

It's actually pretty easy to transfer from a California community college right into UCSD, UCLA, UCR, etc., and these are all excellent, affordable schools. Nowhere in that process do you have to take the SAT or the ACT. You just take college classes, and get college grades that show how you perform in college. You prove yourself by actually doing the thing the standardized test is supposed to evaluate.

I would propose that we look at tests not as the solution, but as another layer of bullshit hoops people have to jump through. Just get people bootstrapped into the damn thing at low-cost, and see how they perform. Evaluate them based on that. Being an SAT savant doesn't mean someone will actually be able to do anything meaningful in the real world.

Sure, that path may not guarantee you a spot at MIT, but if you come from a variety of backgrounds and have some humility about the whole thing you're going to be just fine and you will have more than enough control to steer your destiny in whatever direction your interests lead you.

Anecdotal, but all of my friends who make over $100k went to state schools for undergrad and grad school, and not going to Yale didn't seem to pose too much of an obstacle to them leading happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#57

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

xvector wrote: post #8

> the schools that focus their training on the quest for competitive advantage betray every plausible ideal of academic excellence. The author does not seem to understand that these are not mutually exclusive. You can receive a fantastic, genuinely excellent education that is also a competitive advantage. Indeed, they go hand in hand - I’d argue it’s harder to give an excellent education that’s somehow not advantageo…

I am going to paraphrase certain philosophy professor on one of those elite institutions.

That person [ who chooses to basically blow off the readings and learning and brags about how it does not affect his grade ] is an idiot. The purpose of going here is not to spend $60k a year of your parents money and learn nothing.

I am willing to agree. Each individual student has a choice. Some choose to learn. Some choose to waste their parent's sacrifice ( because they had to use their resources to get that offspring in ).

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#58

Post by stale2002 »

hnzix wrote: post #2

This has become so culturally ingrained that people will casually shame a person for studying an Arts or Humanities degree. "Have fun working at McDonalds you idiot!" An economy is not a society.

People shouldn't be shamed for their choices, sure.

But there is a real mismatch in college, in that what most people want is an education that helps them get a good job, but colleges are unfortunately not optimized for that.

If there were another institution, that was as prestigious as college, but focused much more on providing students what they actually want (IE education for the purpose of getting a job), then I think that most people would choose that instead.

Unfortunately, modern day attempts to focus on job train, such as bootcamps and trade schools, are generally less rigorous, even if they are focused more on providing students what they want.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#59

Post by hintymad »

> Skeptics challenge test scores and rankings on their own terms. Most commonly, critics say that the SAT is culturally or racially biased and fails to predict college grades or future career success. The deeper issue is not that scores and rankings are bad at calibrating what they try to measure. Test scores and rankings are bad at capturing education:

SAT may not "capture education", but some tests certainly do. The key is to have free-form questions as in college, such as proofs, derivations, and word problems. I'm sure there will be false positives, but what system doesn't? I was checking out those college-entrance exams by Japanese universities. If a kid can excel those questions, the kid for sure gets real education and is smarter than most of her peers, statistically speaking. And I don't agree that everyone can game the system by cramming. It's like few people could get into USAMO by cramming. A well-designed test is like USAMO, but easier.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#60

Post by mnouquet »

AlexandrB wrote: post #52
mnouquet wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Do you mean by putting themselves on a pedestal without having experienced life _at_all_ and living in nothing but theories. Yeah, sure. > These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. These days, they are more the people re-writing history to fit a narrative, against any hard evidenc…

> Do you mean by putting themselves on a pedestal without having experienced life _at_all_ and living in nothing but theories. Yeah, sure. I hope the irony that this describes a large portion of the tech industry is not lost on you.

> I hope the irony that this describes a large portion of the tech industry is not lost on you.

Of course, that's why I'm constantly getting downvoted, and got disowned.

I witnessed my shitfaced +$150,000 salary co-worker in Santa Monica "educates" a hobo (with certainly his own fair share of mental health & drug issues) about how he claimed he had been rude to another co-worker. The same way some of my world travelling c-level execs family members tried to "educate" my gf about her carbon emission daily 30 miles commute.

ALL these pricks have never known hunger, not having a roof over their head or not knowing what tomorrow will be made of. I cherish what I have now, and they will only pry it from my cold dead hands... and I won't go without a fight. All my guns are locked and loaded.

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