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Why do drum sets have descending toms?

lowvolumedrumming.org

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Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#51

Post by rectang »

The thrill of a percussionist striving against physical limits is real, but the absolute sound pressure level produced depends on the limits of the total instrument. Consider a conga player slamming as hard as they can, versus a rock drummer flamming with both sticks on a snare drum.

I'm not sure that it's possible to design something that sounds like a traditional rock drum kit that doesn't cause hearing damage when a drummer is mashing. It requires a different percussion instrument.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#52

Post by absorber »

stdbrouw wrote: post #47
capableweb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that the "loudness war" in general seems to be over, and people focus more on quality, mixing and mastering rather than making things sound as loud as possible, especially when it comes to electronic music. Similarly as what you said, you know when a mix is very well made when it sounds good when you're playing it on low volume, not when it sounds good on high volume.

Nitpick: the "loudness war" is about mastering / compressing a recording so that it sounds louder at any given volume, it doesn't really have anything to do with optimizing things so they sound better at high volumes or a preference for loud sounding instruments.

I don't know. I'd argue that if the production process is influenced by the loudness war, then it too becomes part of the loudness war.

For example, a technique of masking distortion (or clipping, rather) is adding something with rich harmonic content (a trumpet for example) to parts that are expected to be hitting the wall and otherwise distorting / clipping.

Would trumpets be there otherwise? I don't know, but I'm sure producers are aware of the limitations of digital audio and as such adapt the music to it.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#53

Post by rectang »

absorber wrote: post #52
stdbrouw wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: the "loudness war" is about mastering / compressing a recording so that it sounds louder at any given volume, it doesn't really have anything to do with optimizing things so they sound better at high volumes or a preference for loud sounding instruments.

I don't know. I'd argue that if the production process is influenced by the loudness war, then it too becomes part of the loudness war. For example, a technique of masking distortion (or clipping, rather) is adding something with rich harmonic content (a trumpet for example) to parts that are expected to be hitting the wall and otherwise distorting / clipping. Would trumpets be there otherwise? I don't know, but I'm…

I worked as a mastering engineer for a couple years back in the aughts, and I can confirm that to really max things out requires production techniques.

For example, analog tape naturally saturates high frequency sounds before low frequency sounds, which brings down the peak level of a close mic'd drum. Peak limiting a recording which already has analog-saturated drums produces fewer audible artifacts.

In the abstract, at mastering-time you can achieve any absolute level without hard-clipping by smushing down the peaks with peak limiting and multi-band compression, then dialing things back up with makeup gain. But when compared against the original recording in a level matched test, at some point the processed result becomes unacceptably degraded.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#54

Post by adrianmonk »

bjt wrote: post #14
Hackbraten wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t descending a suitable word to describe just that? Like descending stairs?

But who's to say they're descending rather than ascending? A person can ascend stairs, or descend. A drummer could play an ascending pattern on their toms, or a descending pattern. But neither the toms or stairs have an inherent upward or downward direction.

I guess the way they mean it is not about playing. It's about how, as your eye moves from one tom to the next, you see the bottom of the tom's shell getting lower.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#55

Post by rectang »

capableweb wrote: post #43
danck wrote: post #42

Absolutly amazed to see this article on Hacker News. This guy (the author) is the real deal. I once had the pleasure to visit his workshop and he had me test a bass drum he recently made. An amazing piece indeed. Just a gentle tap from the beater and it produced a rich and powerful but quiet sound! I often hear famous and extraordinary drummers on Youtube state that playing quiet is a skill every drummer can acquire.…

I'm glad that the "loudness war" in general seems to be over, and people focus more on quality, mixing and mastering rather than making things sound as loud as possible, especially when it comes to electronic music. Similarly as what you said, you know when a mix is very well made when it sounds good when you're playing it on low volume, not when it sounds good on high volume.

The difference is the delivery medium. It has always been in the interest of producers for individual recordings to seem louder relative to other recordings in the same genre, and that is still true today. However, a level matched experience is better for the consumer, so apps like Spotify apply perceptual loudness metrics and turn down maxed recordings.

That kind of level matching didn't happen with consumer CD players or vinyl turntables. Producers have to use different techniques to stand out in an automatically level-matched environment.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#56

Post by darkerside »

Hackbraten wrote: post #8
lc9er wrote: post #4

The title doesn’t match the article. It’s not about why toms descend in tone (typically - unless you are Jimmy Chamberlain and a handful of others). It’s about why toms have variable lengths.

Isn’t descending a suitable word to describe just that? Like descending stairs?

It's acceptable, but I agree it's confusing. Variable length would be more suitable because it's less ambiguous.

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#57

Post by [deleted] »

Applejinx wrote: post #34

Back when I was a kid, I made a four-tom drumkit out of a normal kit by sawing all the toms in half and making them shallow single-headed drums :) I would love to have a 'pancake' kit with all the drums double-headed but shallow. Maybe someday I'll try to get that made. The article suggests you could simply do that: everything gets the same very shallow drum depth, like a kit composed of snares without snare wires.

[deleted]

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#58

Post by 8note »

stdbrouw wrote: post #47
capableweb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that the "loudness war" in general seems to be over, and people focus more on quality, mixing and mastering rather than making things sound as loud as possible, especially when it comes to electronic music. Similarly as what you said, you know when a mix is very well made when it sounds good when you're playing it on low volume, not when it sounds good on high volume.

Nitpick: the "loudness war" is about mastering / compressing a recording so that it sounds louder at any given volume, it doesn't really have anything to do with optimizing things so they sound better at high volumes or a preference for loud sounding instruments.

It's hard to make things louder when your loudest section tops out.

Compression is an optimization for making the song sound better at louder volume

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#59

Post by 8note »

speeder wrote: post #9
uniqueid wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my impression, too. I once did some research on toms for some audio code. Toms are pretty tonal, as far as drums go, yet, as far as I could tell from my research there's no standard tuning for them. That would make sense if pop musicians all tuned their toms according to the music they were playing, but to the extent that they do, the tunings I read about were mostly flakey (ie: ungrounded in music theory)

That explains a particular drummer I know... I know a drummer that is very particular about tuning his drums, and he gets mad when people change it, thing is, he also plays other instruments, so I guess he DOES choose what notes he wants from his drum.

I certainly do, but I try to play them in a melodic manner.

I haven't played in ages, so I'm not sure where I settle at, but I imagine there's a few notes that come up in music frequently enough to leave the toms in those tunings.

They also have to match the cymbals

Re: Why do drum sets have descending toms?

#60

Post by [deleted] »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #38
uniqueid wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my impression, too. I once did some research on toms for some audio code. Toms are pretty tonal, as far as drums go, yet, as far as I could tell from my research there's no standard tuning for them. That would make sense if pop musicians all tuned their toms according to the music they were playing, but to the extent that they do, the tunings I read about were mostly flakey (ie: ungrounded in music theory)

All drums - including the snare, but excluding the snare rattle - are modal. They're the 2D/3D implementation of a wave equation. So instead of having a neat more-or-less integer-based harmonic series like a 1D resonant object (i.e. a string) they have multiple complex resonant modes which are triggered simultaneously, and which decay at different rates. So they're semi-pitched. There's usually a fundamental, but the…

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