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FBI Accesses Computers Around Country to Delete Microsoft Exchange Hacks

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Re: FBI Accesses Computers Around Country to Delete Microsoft Exchange Hacks

#51
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he means that because it's the FBI. I think he means that since the FBI is using the vulnerability itself to patch affected systems that you've already been compromised if the FBI is able to do this to your system.

But buy a new machine?

It's a sticky wicket. A compromised machine is just that, compromised.

Someone recently posted a story about an exploit wherein the compiler itself was compromised to compromise a particular set of programs when compiling those programs. Including the compiler itself.

So closing this particular door does not mean that they didn't use their access to establish other doors. Or self-opening doors. Or any number of things. And you have no clue as to how far down it goes. This exploit could have compromised the boot loader or something. The only way to be completely sure is to essentially strip the machine to bare metal and audit every piece of software on it.

The safest thing to do, if you want to be completely sure, is to buy a new machine. And even then, you're trusting that the machine you bought hasn't been compromised by the manufacturer or something like that. But it's a known-ish quantity.

But that's a "nuke it from orbit" kind of option. Often, being completely sure isn't necessary. We can live with reasonably sure.

Re: FBI Accesses Computers Around Country to Delete Microsoft Exchange Hacks

#52
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it was exactly analogous to a microphone or a different lock in the physical world. The bad actors installed reverse shells, the shells could have been sitting idle, but they could have also have been in active use by the bad actors. In the physical world, cops have exigent circumstance rules that would allow them to go inside a residence in cases like that. Their first priority isn't normally making sur…

There's no perfect analogy between the real world and the digital one. This being said you're misconstruing the situation to make the "but terrorists" and "think of the children" argument. I've lived long enough to see people parrot the same claims over and over again, changing only the $enemy_of_the_day. What you have in those servers are the criminals' tools . The FBI went there to remove the tools , not the crimin…

> What you have in those servers are the criminals' tools. The FBI went there to remove the tools, not the criminals.

It was a reverse shell, they removed shell access that the criminals could use to do whatever they want on the affected servers. Yes, no one is actually inside of the servers that they are working on, but if you have a shell inside of a given server and are connected to it, I would consider you inside that server.

> So sure, if the Police sees a criminal in my house about to shoot me, walk right in, please. But I don't want them sneaking in without my explicit consent or a warrant to remove a gun left under my couch by a criminal.

Right, they did indeed have a signed warrant to perform these actions before they performed them.

> can easily turn the exact arguments you're using into supporting backdooring encryption.

To me, this and similar stuff like backdoor encryption are incredibly hard to solve because both sides of the argument make valid points. The law enforcement community are not all dumb luddites grasping for power for their own sinister means. They fight legitimate monsters and a lot of them only care about fighting those monsters. At the same time, the opposing argument that adding back doors and other similar things are extremely detrimental to security for the population at large. It is a trade off with no compromise that is acceptable to both parties at the same time.

> This being said you're misconstruing the situation to make the "but terrorists" and "think of the children" argument.

We live in a world with bad nation state actors, why exactly is it wrong to make the argument that there are bad actors that do bad things to a small minority of the population and that fighting those things is good? I don't think anyone would say that those bad nation state actors do not exist and are not doing bad things to companies in the United States. The intellectual thievery against companies in the United States is real and it has happened numerous times and is not some conspiracy theory peddled by law enforcement so that they can grab more power.

> Or pretty much any "proactive" move that will "stop the Chinese". No amount of rationalizing will change the fact that you shouldn't force these "favors" on anyone. Pass a law that mandates something to the same effect to be implemented by the owners themselves, or by the vendor, once informed of the risk, under the threat of penalties if they don't.

What exactly was wrong with the actions taken by the FBI that you so vehemently oppose? Do you really think that there was a single one the affected companies that would have rather left the reverse shells in place just because someone in the FBI running a script against their server to remove that shell would make them uncomfortable? The FBI are not legislators, they cannot pass laws to prompt companies to clean up those reverse shells. I highly doubt that their actions had sinister motives and the most likely occam's razer solution is that they were just trying to do a good thing for their country.

Sure, there could be a world where our laws are on the libertarian end of the spectrum where law enforcement officers don't come near the line that makes people uncomfortable. However, that route will have numerous trade offs that a lot of society will not like. Law enforcement has to tread a fine line where they prohibit bad actors from doing bad things so that society can live and prosper while at the same time not doing stasi-like stuff that will suffocate and control society. This issue and others like it are not black and white, both sides have valid points and tipping completely to either end of the spectrum completely doesn't seem like the best route. Their actions in this case don't seem too stasi-like to me.

Re: FBI Accesses Computers Around Country to Delete Microsoft Exchange Hacks

#53
post #7
post #5

Sweet, since we now have the precedence that the FBI can invade your machine without permission whenever they want for national security reasons I can't wait the glorious future we have before us. Now the FBI can access your machine and start modifying things because you are expressing displeasure at your public officials which is a sign of "terrorist behavior", oops you're using your blog to say things the governmen…

Look, in The Netherlands, the largest grocery chain ( AH, Albert Heijn, Ahold ) has empty cheese shelves because their cheese-logistics-company got hacked through this vulnerability. The Dutch, without cheese. Do you see the severity of the problem now? Jeez.

I've seen the 'think of the kids' excuse ad nauseum, but I've never seen 'think of the cheese!'

True to Poe's law, I honestly cannot tell if this was in jest or serious.

Re: FBI Accesses Computers Around Country to Delete Microsoft Exchange Hacks

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? They can't set one foot inside in order to reach the doorhandle if the door is 90 degrees open? And what America are we talking about, "your rights according to the ACLU" America, media portrayals of America, or in-real-life common sense America where you can have a ten minute conversation with a policeman about everyday things with no worries because it's actually no big deal?

Yes really and this isn't just simply "door closing". https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

I guess. Reminds me of the time in Santiago de Chile we were fixing up a place and the door was ajar. A group of Jehova's Witnesses came in without knocking, holding their pamphlet in front of them in a noticeably odd way, in case they found anybody inside they'd be all about the pamphlet. I guess they thought it was their warrant.
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