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Is content moderation a dead end?

ben-evans.com

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Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#51
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are great points. I believe that there should be essentially no censorship at all, subject to First Amendment restrictions. Posts could be hidden to people based on age, political, or other preferences, but would always be accessible to adult users willing to sign a waiver. I believe very much that bad material no matter how disgusting is best handled through public exposure, not censorship.

How do you deal with misinformation? Anti vax misinformation could literally devastate an entire society if given enough oxygen. Are your free speech ideals more important than the health of an entire economy and hundreds of thousands of lives at risk?

This reminds me of a line from an NPR story. It said that "false" information spread twice as fast and twice as far as "true" information on twitter.

No interrogation of why it spread was investigated. It immediately made me wonder, maybe people just thought "false" information was a whole lot funnier, and hence sharable.

The problem with misinformation is it vaguely doesn't exist. There's parody, non-orthodoxy, true things people disagree with for political reason, unproven things, urban myths, rumors, etc etc. These are all classes of information people blame all the ills of society on.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#52

Years ago, i suggested a algorithmic approach to moderation to a Open Source project i contribute too. They ultimately went another way (classic moderation), but the idea was pretty neat. You basically create a feudal vouching system, were highly engaged community members, vouch for others, who again vouch for others. If people in this "Dharma-tree" accumulate problematic behaviour points, the structure at first, bub…

> What if there exists a whole tree of bad apples vouching for another? That's when you add top moderation, so the algorithm becomes a way to scale the moderators, not a full moderation solution. You can't create an algorithm that solves moderation, unless you create a fully featured AI with a value system.

You can also test this, similarly to how Stackoverflow does it: send people a post that you know is bad (or good) and check that they flag it. If they don't, let them know that they are doing it wrong, lock them out of moderation, or silently ignore their voting and use it as a signal of voting rings.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#54
There are at least a few kinds of bad:

Spam, google bombing, and related activities. These are noise, generally.

Misinformation is slippery. Often this gets conflated with differences of opinion. That is happening a lot right now as moderation is politicized and weaponized. More than we think is debatable and should be debated rather than legislated or canonized into an orthodoxy, flirting with facism.

Clearly criminal speech, kiddie pr0n, inciting violence, etc. These are not noise and can be linked to either real harm as a matter of the production of the speech (kiddie pr0n), or can be linked to the very likely prospect of harm. Material harm, is an important distinction segway to:

Offensive material.

Being offended is as harmful as we all think it is. Here me out, please:

To a person of deep religious conviction, some speech can offend them just as deeply. They may struggle to differentiate it from criminal speech, and in some parts of the world this is resolved by making the speech criminal anyway. Blasphemy.

That same speech might be laughable to some who are not religious, or who perhaps hold faith of a different order, sect.

Notably, we have yet to get around to the intent of the speaker.

Say the intent was nefarious! That intent would hit the mark sometimes, and other times it would not.

Say the intent was benign. Same outcome!

With me so far?

Before I continue, perhaps it makes sense to match tools up with speech.

For the noise, rule based, AI type systems can help. People can appeal, and the burden here is modest. Could be well distributed with reasonable outcomes more than not. Potentially a lot more.

Misinformation is a very hard problem, and one we need to work more on. People are required. AI, rule based schemes are blunt instruments at best. Total mess right now.

For the criminal speech, people are needed, and the law is invoked, or should be. The burden here is high, and may not be so well distributed, despite the cost paid by those people involved.

Offensive material overlaps with misinformation, in that rule based, and AI systems are only marginally effective, and people are required.

Now, back to why I wrote this:

Barring criminal speech, how the recipient responds is just as important as the moderation system is!

I said we are as offended as we think we are above, and here is what I mean by that:

Say a clown calls you an ass, or says your god is a false god, or the like. Could be pretty offensive stuff, right?

But when we assign a weighting of the words, just how much weight do the words of a clown carry? Not much!

And people have options. One response to the above may be to laugh as what is arguably laughable.

Another may be to ask questions to clarify intent.

Yet another option is to express righteous indignation.

Trolling, along with misinformation share something in common, and that is they tend to work best when many people respond with either righteous indignation (trolling), or passionate affirmation and or concern. (Misinformation)

Notably, how people respond has a major league impact on both the potency and effectiveness of the speech. How we respond also has a similar impact on how much of a problem the speech can be too.

There are feedback loops here that can amplify speech better left with out resonance.

A quick look at trolling can yield insight too:

The cost of trolling is low and the rewards can be super high! A good troll can cast an entire community into grave angst and do so for almost nothing, for example.

However, that same troll may come to regret they ever even thought of trying it in a different community, say one where most of its members are inoculated against trolling. How?

They understand their options. Righteous indignation is the least desirable response because it is easily amplified and is a very high reward for the troll.

Laughing them off the stage can work well.

But there is more!

I did this with a community as it was very effective:

Assign a cost to speakers who cost more than their contributions deliver value! Also, do not silence them. Daylight on the whole process can be enlightening for all involved as well as open the door for all possible options to happen.

People showed up to troll, stayed for the high value conversation and friends they ended up with.

Others left and were reluctant to try again.

The basic mechanism was to require posts conform to one or more rules to be visible. That's it.

Example costs:

No 4 letter words allowed.

Contribution must contain, "I like [something harmless]"

Contribution may not contain the letter "e".

And they have to get it right first time, and edits are evaluated each edit. Any failure renders the contribution hidden.

Both of these did not limit expression. They did impose a cost, sometimes high (no letter "e"), sometimes subtle (no four letter words)...

But what they did do was start a conversation about cost, intent, and

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#55
post #4

Obviously not, since we’re discussing it on a site with content moderation right now that, in my opinion, works much better than sites without.

Another site with moderated comments is Ars Technica. It works out great for them.

On the other side there is unmoderated Phoronix, which has the worst comment section that I've ever seen.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#56

Years ago, i suggested a algorithmic approach to moderation to a Open Source project i contribute too. They ultimately went another way (classic moderation), but the idea was pretty neat. You basically create a feudal vouching system, were highly engaged community members, vouch for others, who again vouch for others. If people in this "Dharma-tree" accumulate problematic behaviour points, the structure at first, bub…

That sounds like a pretty fantastic way to build an echo chamber.

It's funny that you comment that on HN

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#57

Years ago, i suggested a algorithmic approach to moderation to a Open Source project i contribute too. They ultimately went another way (classic moderation), but the idea was pretty neat. You basically create a feudal vouching system, were highly engaged community members, vouch for others, who again vouch for others. If people in this "Dharma-tree" accumulate problematic behaviour points, the structure at first, bub…

I was part of solving a content moderation problem for a tech company forum once. The most troublesome users were often the most prolific posters. The people who had a lot of free time on their hands to post every single day were often the most disgruntled, seizing every issue as a chance to stir up more controversy. It was tough enough to reel in difficult users when they had no power. Giving extra power to people w…

I used to moderate a few message boards, and I fully agree.

I think empowering the "power users" like this inevitably leads to Stack Overflow-style communities, where arrogant responses are the norm, the taste of a few regulates the many, and the culture of the community ossifies because new contributors are not welcomed.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#58

Years ago, i suggested a algorithmic approach to moderation to a Open Source project i contribute too. They ultimately went another way (classic moderation), but the idea was pretty neat. You basically create a feudal vouching system, were highly engaged community members, vouch for others, who again vouch for others. If people in this "Dharma-tree" accumulate problematic behaviour points, the structure at first, bub…

This is easy to solve if you don't have a "public timeline", e.g. if you only see posts that have been vouched by people you follow. Like using Twitter but without topics, hashtags, and search: the only content you see has been either authored by someone you directly follow, or retweeted by someone you directly follow.

If you keep seeing content you like (through retweets), you can follow that person directly to get more. If you see content you dislike, you can unfollow the person who brought it into your timeline (by retweeting it).

Of course this would work a bit better if there was a way for accounts to categorize posts they author or retweet. You might follow me for tech-related content but not care much about my French politics content, which I would be happy to categorize as I post/retweet but have no way to do on current Twitter.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#59

On a little bit of a corollary -- “Who gets to decide what’s true?” is the wrong question. We should be asking “how do we determine what’s true?” https://blog.nillium.com/fighting-misinformation-online/

Dreadful as it sounds, maybe the truth truly don’t matter. You don’t have to live fully anchored down in the baseline reality, just your worldview has to be able to do more than sustain you.

Maybe it’s okay to be waist deep into QAnon schizophrenia so long as the rest of your life is also okay, and vice versa. Though those imaginations aren’t the kind of powdered grape juice to me.

Re: Is content moderation a dead end?

#60

Years ago, i suggested a algorithmic approach to moderation to a Open Source project i contribute too. They ultimately went another way (classic moderation), but the idea was pretty neat. You basically create a feudal vouching system, were highly engaged community members, vouch for others, who again vouch for others. If people in this "Dharma-tree" accumulate problematic behaviour points, the structure at first, bub…

Just as there is no stopping “crime” there is no stopping bad content.

Besides - these are evolutionary games being played between grazers (content consumers) and predators (alarmingly large group).

As long as there is signal in a forum, there will come to be a method to subvert it.

Honestly the question I would ask people is how do you measure bad behavior on a forum.

Any technical idea, such as your tree, is doomed to eventual obsolescence. The question is how long it would take, and how effective it would be, and how you would measure it.

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