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NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

bbc.co.uk

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Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#51

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

cameronh90 wrote: post #4

Irrespective of ones own feelings about this particular app: isn't it interesting that Google and Apple have the power to collect all our location data, but can refuse our democratic governments access to that data even on a voluntary basis?

Better the devil you know? The worse that Google may do with your data is targeting you with some personalised ads. As for Apple, they have probably even less interests with those... But your government is a different matter. Speeding, financial "crimes", ... evading Covid-19 restrictions :-)

Actually the scariest about Google / Apple collecting your data is ironically when a government entity may investigate you and request data from these companies

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#52

Post by simion314 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #44
simion314 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not trolls to demand the freedom to do whatever they want with their property and the freedom to pass laws to force Apple to permit that. The argument that if you do not like Apple or Goole use Linux can be reverse and if Apple or Google does not like EU or other market with anti-competitive laws they are very,very free not to do business there. Should I remind the fanboys again that Apple gives China dire…

> People are not trolls to demand the freedom to do whatever they want with their property But you can do whatever you want as far as it’s possible by the product that you purchased. If you buy a Gameboy you wouldn’t sue Nintendo for not supporting you to play Playstation games on it, unless you’re a troll. Same thing for Apple products. Do with your iPhone what you want, but if you don’t like the Apple software on i…

Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good and the giants are free to pack their bags and leave.

So when someone in EU asks for Apple to open up the US people should not trigger as much since they can keep their locked versions of the phones, nobody would force them to buy the unlocked EU version. Similar when banks were forced to reduce commissions on stuff, or mobile networks were forced to reduce big charges in EU the companies could ahve left, but the banks and companies are still here and not US citizen was directly harmed (maybe some will still cry that there are places where big money is not enough )

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#53

Post by maxerickson »

makomk wrote: post #41
weddpros wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (western) governments had chosen to prevent the epidemic, apps would have helped, but they decided to let the virus spread, just slowly enough. Also (western) journalists love stories about 3M deaths, surveillance apps or fake news, much more than success stories. So yes, apps had no chance to save lives. Korea or Singapore show they could have, but we didn't let them.

Part of the problem is that the mainstream media - including the BBC - seem to have mislead people about how well contact tracing worked in places like South Korea. For example, they ran an article a few months back about how it was so effective that South Korea could reopen their pubs and nightclubs. In reality, they'd tried doing that multiple times and every time, cases had started going up enough that they had to…

It's more in control in South Korea than it is in Europe or the US. The daily infections (per capita) are lower than the US or UK, even though they have not deployed nearly as much vaccine. Things may end sooner in the US, but probably not better overall (South Korea is likely to speed up vaccinations once more vaccines are globally available).

I'm also under the impression that their interventions have been less drastic than the US (but I haven't been following closely).

Are we really stuck thinking that a thing has to be a complete solution to be worth doing? It seems clear enough to me that identifying clusters and helping infected people isolate both have a big positive impact (both in disease control and in keeping things more open). Apps can be a piece of that puzzle.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#54

Post by dustinmoris »

simion314 wrote: post #52
dustinmoris wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are not trolls to demand the freedom to do whatever they want with their property But you can do whatever you want as far as it’s possible by the product that you purchased. If you buy a Gameboy you wouldn’t sue Nintendo for not supporting you to play Playstation games on it, unless you’re a troll. Same thing for Apple products. Do with your iPhone what you want, but if you don’t like the Apple software on i…

Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good and the giants are free to pack their bags and leave. So when someone in EU asks for Apple to open up the US people should not trigger as much since they can keep their locked versions of the phones, nobody would force them to buy the unlocked EU vers…

> Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good

But the electorate didn’t ask the government to collect location data on them, quite the opposite, so everything that you just said is literally fantasy cuckoo land argumentation. The reality is that people don’t want to be spied in by the government and people don’t want Apple to give the government that access and Apple is acting in the interest of everyone except a few people in parliament.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#55

Post by simion314 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #54
simion314 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good and the giants are free to pack their bags and leave. So when someone in EU asks for Apple to open up the US people should not trigger as much since they can keep their locked versions of the phones, nobody would force them to buy the unlocked EU vers…

> Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good But the electorate didn’t ask the government to collect location data on them, quite the opposite, so everything that you just said is literally fantasy cuckoo land argumentation. The reality is that people don’t want to be spied in by the governmen…

I am arguing about the freedom to install what application you want, I don't demand you to install UK or other government app, if you would think for a moment this would mean that if your repressive government would force Apple to pre-install an app you would have the freedom to remove it(wow, to remove or change the defaults , such a revolution, think about it, and nobody forces you to do anything, you can keep all the Apple locks in place).

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#56

Post by jmkerr »

dustinmoris wrote: post #54
simion314 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good and the giants are free to pack their bags and leave. So when someone in EU asks for Apple to open up the US people should not trigger as much since they can keep their locked versions of the phones, nobody would force them to buy the unlocked EU vers…

> Sure, but I have the right to ask my government to pass new laws, so I don't beg Apple,Google, Facebook,Steam to be moral I ask my government to act for our common good But the electorate didn’t ask the government to collect location data on them, quite the opposite, so everything that you just said is literally fantasy cuckoo land argumentation. The reality is that people don’t want to be spied in by the governmen…

The UK government has a democratic mandate to track infections, including by tracking visitors to areas of risk. The correct way to do this, and how most other governments do it is to provide two Apps. One for trivial QR/location based tracking, one for contact based tracking using the government-exclusive APIs.

The point is, the UK government made a technical error, we cannot extrapolate a democratic deficit or malice or anything like that from the information we have from this event.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#57

Post by RossM »

llimos wrote: post #40
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this specific case, I'm really glad they're exercising their power, because they seem to be doing it in the best possible way, and have forced governments to do the right, privacy-preserving thing. And I think having this power is OK - nobody should be forced to help the government implement something unethical. There may be scenarios where this goes horribly wrong, but the contact tracing framework is a case wher…

> nobody should be forced to help the government implement something unethical Nobody is forced to install the app at all (at least in the UK's case). And if they do, they're not forced to share their location anyway. On the other hand, anyone who has an Android phone is forced to share tons of data with Google. And the cost of not having one is much higher than the cost of not having the government's app.

> Nobody is forced to install the app at all (at least in the UK's case).

Unfortunately, that's not quite right. Citing the latest rules:

> The rules on what you need to do when a group enters your venue have changed. You must ask every customer or visitor to scan the NHS QR code using their NHS COVID-19 app, or provide their name and contact details, not just a lead member of the group. [0]

[0] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maintaining-records-of-staff-cus...

Delving into the rules, it appears this applies to all sit-in venues, while takeaway customers are exempt. A paper-based system should be available, if you trust the business to handle your data responsibly (or forge fake data if not).

This morning at a cafe I was asked to scan the QR code "or we can't serve you" for a takeaway order. Clearly some misunderstanding, and I didn't press about a paper-based list as I hadn't read the details myself. Hopefully it's an isolated incident, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was some simplified comms (/FUD) about "just get customers to scan the code".

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#58

Post by cassianoleal »

RossM wrote: post #57
llimos wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody should be forced to help the government implement something unethical Nobody is forced to install the app at all (at least in the UK's case). And if they do, they're not forced to share their location anyway. On the other hand, anyone who has an Android phone is forced to share tons of data with Google. And the cost of not having one is much higher than the cost of not having the government's app.

> Nobody is forced to install the app at all (at least in the UK's case). Unfortunately, that's not quite right. Citing the latest rules: > The rules on what you need to do when a group enters your venue have changed. You must ask every customer or visitor to scan the NHS QR code using their NHS COVID-19 app , or provide their name and contact details, not just a lead member of the group. [0] [0] https://www.gov.uk/g…

> or provide their name and contact details

There are 2 alternatives to installing the app:

- providing your details; or - not entering the venue.

Seems correct that nobody is forced to install the app.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#59

Post by Angostura »

cameronh90 wrote: post #4

Irrespective of ones own feelings about this particular app: isn't it interesting that Google and Apple have the power to collect all our location data, but can refuse our democratic governments access to that data even on a voluntary basis?

With Apple, at least you can opt out of all location info going to Apple

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#60

Post by makomk »

cassianoleal wrote: post #58
RossM wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is forced to install the app at all (at least in the UK's case). Unfortunately, that's not quite right. Citing the latest rules: > The rules on what you need to do when a group enters your venue have changed. You must ask every customer or visitor to scan the NHS QR code using their NHS COVID-19 app , or provide their name and contact details, not just a lead member of the group. [0] [0] https://www.gov.uk/g…

> or provide their name and contact details There are 2 alternatives to installing the app: - providing your details; or - not entering the venue. Seems correct that nobody is forced to install the app.

Unfortunately, Google and Apple have effectively made it impossible to use the paper-based details in order to contact people and tell them to self-isolate if someone who used the app to check in tests positive by blocking this.
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