MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#51

Post by ffggvv » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #21

On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. I know America has a serious NIH syndrome, but the situation could be improved overnight if every single public school adopted the GCSE/A levels or IB cu…

wouldnt this be the point? what woudl you be measuring if someone is smart other than IQ?

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#52

Post by CrazyStat » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

__palo_alto__ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

By failing to pass required classes, for example because they didn't turn in any homework.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#53

Post by jostmey » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #31

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

At least the wealthy still have to take the test. With essays, there is no guarantee that the person wrote it. There are numerous websites for purchasing essays

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#54

Post by cma » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #31

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

At least in the past, Harvard had a far higher rate of students with learning disabilities than lower tier schools, because having one meant you could get unlimited time on the SAT (giving the time to, on the math part, test every multiple choice solution manually rather than solve once and choose or use other higher level strategies).

Richer families were more likely to have connections with a doctor to give the diagnosis, afford the insurance deductible, or even be in the right circles or to know through word of mouth or paid admissions advisers that it was a thing to try and acquire for the kid.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#55

Post by sparky_z » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #31

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

Yes, everything. But testing is the least gameable (assuming you can prevent actual cheating). So getting rid of it makes admission more gameable overall.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#56

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #23

So many university recruiters at that level just suggest a minimum application criteria after which a lottery is applied to select acceptable applicants. A truly randomized lottery would ensure no bias in student selection. If you have, let’s say, 3000 open positions and 15,000 applications of which all are academically qualified does it really matter who they pick for admission? It’s not like there is going to be an…

> It’s not like there is going to be any real world performance difference between candidate 1200 and 12000 if they are valedictorians with 4.0 GPAs.

It's fun to say things!

On the other hand, it's not like people haven't thought of this before. https://sci-hub.se/10.1037/0021-9010.86.4.718

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#57

Post by alexgartrell » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

The fundamental issue is that crushing the SAT/ACT is more of a reflection of “mom and dad got me good tutoring or prep” than it is intellectual merit.

I “weaseled” my way into CMU via athletic admissions (I was an actual athlete, not a Lori Laughlin style one), but did very well at CMU once I got there. People who aced the SATs did not do as well. Fwiw I still did okay, 32 ACT score, but there were 35/36’s around.

IOW, prediction of academic success is hard; career success harder. These standardized tests don’t add much.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#58

Post by rudderz » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#59

Post by crysin » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

__palo_alto__ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

By failing your courses and or dropping out. High Schools in the US don't have a static curriculum. Not all students graduating will have taken Algebra 2, Pre-Calc, trig. They also may not have taken Physics or a lot of the other sciences.

Most public High Schools in the US are honestly extremely hard to fail out of. As long as you get C's in all your classes you'll graduate.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#60

Post by currymj » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

The 25th percentile student at MIT gets a 790 math SAT, it's 730 for language. Difference between 790 and 800 is basically luck. It's at the point where the test can only hurt you not help you.

There's no upside, but if you don't prepare, or happen to have a bad day, it can ruin your chances. For students applying to MIT-caliber schools it's a hoop to jump through, not an opportunity to distinguish themselves.

I am honestly curious how the MIT admissions office is able to use the SAT to predict anything about student success, given a huge majority of the students got a nearly perfect score. It seems like there should be almost no signal.