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The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#51

Post by GavinMcG »

luckylion wrote: post #32
GavinMcG wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're talking about certain subjects being more prevalent in left- or right-wing communities. That's different from making opposition to science a political priority. Yeah, there's kooks on the left who go for healing crystals–but that's not incorporated into left politics. On the other hand, elected Republicans have actively fought in the political arena against climate issues being taken seriously. This sh…

> Yeah, there's kooks on the left who go for healing crystals–but that's not incorporated into left politics. Mhh, critical race theory, the whole gender studies joke etc seems to be pretty deeply settled in left politics. It's just something that progressives "like" and therefore don't question the absurdity and consider it "science".

Do they consider it science? I haven't seen racial justice movements incorporating that. And if they do, that's evidence of an orientation toward science that the right actively opposes—i.e. an effort to dress up views with a scientific gloss.

You're talking about misusing science, or relying on junk science. Those are problems, of course, but they're not the opposition to the scientific project as a whole that this article focuses on.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#52

Post by djrogers »

jfengel wrote: post #41
pjmorris wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd heard of the anti-vaxx movement in the mid-90's.

Anti-vax took a weird twist over the past decade. It used to be a hippie-liberal notion, heavily informed by being anti-corporate anti-big-pharma. But it became more mainstream and cross-party when endorsed by celebrities, and then cross-fertilized with the anti-science anti-government Republican party. I'm sure the crunchy-granola antivaxers are still out there, but they were a fringe group and remain a fringe group…

> But for the GOP it's mainstream.

No, it's really not. It's only mainstream in the GOP if you get your news from the left - if you associate with and listen to people on both sides of the aisle, you realize that it's a fringe element on both sides.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#53

Post by [deleted] »

StavrosK wrote: post #40
dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

[deleted]

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#54

Post by jfengel »

happyopossum wrote: post #39

Articles like this one accelerate the politicization of conspiracies like anti-vax, rather than help address the underlying problem. To attempt to make this a 'right wing extremist' problem, one has to ignore the fact that one of the historically least vaccinated counties in the US is also one of the most progressive (Marin CO in the Bay Area). This is a 'nut jobs on Facebook' problem, not a right or left problem. --…

This is a case where "nut jobs on Facebook" are being endorsed by prominent political figures from one party, and not the other. Every party has its nut jobs, but there's a real asymmetry here, where explicit anti-science attitudes are a political platform of just one side.

Fighting "nut jobs on Facebook" is a good thing to do, though it's really hard. "Hard" becomes "impossible" when prominent political figures endorse it.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#55

Post by alea_iacta_est »

StavrosK wrote: post #40
dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

> Noble Lie

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#56

Post by maxerickson »

jfengel wrote: post #41
pjmorris wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd heard of the anti-vaxx movement in the mid-90's.

Anti-vax took a weird twist over the past decade. It used to be a hippie-liberal notion, heavily informed by being anti-corporate anti-big-pharma. But it became more mainstream and cross-party when endorsed by celebrities, and then cross-fertilized with the anti-science anti-government Republican party. I'm sure the crunchy-granola antivaxers are still out there, but they were a fringe group and remain a fringe group…

The vaccines were accelerated by spending money and the high prevalence of the infection, they weren't rushed.

4 months into widespread use they have been safe and have demonstrated high efficacy in real world use.

The blood clotting with the AZ vaccine is an issue, but that risk is still a good trade-off for a big segment of the population.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#57

Post by eric_b »

pjc50 wrote: post #49
eric_b wrote: post #42

Eh, the political left is just as guilty of abusing "science" for its own agenda. If you look at what peer reviewed articles in medical journals say about COVID, and then you look at the "pro-science" left-leaning-media coverage - you'll see two entirely different things. The political left picks and chooses the findings it likes to fit the narrative, and exaggerates them for effect. In the United States, if you live…

> possible, and worth the risk, to open schools for younger children Could you elaborate on this? It seems to be clear that while children themselves are relatively unscathed, they spread the virus among themselves and to their family members quite effectively.

I mean, Google will tell you everything you need to know:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

> Based on the data available, in-person learning in schools has not been associated with substantial community transmission. Although national COVID-19 case incidence rates among children and adolescents have risen over time, this trend parallels trends observed among adults.17 Increases in case incidence among school-aged children and school reopenings do not appear to pre-date increases in community transmission

We knew all of this back in September because Europe had taken the lead on keeping schools open in many places. Only now in the United States is it politically palatable to talk about.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#58

Post by pjc50 »

rriepe wrote: post #50
dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

I call it "Science with a capital S." It seeks to find and destroy an outgroup, always, like a bad cult. It portrays non-believers as harmful. There's no exceptions. Outsiders are always portrayed as dangerous with many lives at stake. It's never about the science but about rooting out the people who disagree. It's purely a political movement and has almost nothing to do with science. As a religion, it's the worst re…

Science as a religion is known as "scientism".

(A greentext user was posting this valid point and seems to have been zapped)

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#59

Post by bryanlarsen »

eric_b wrote: post #42

Eh, the political left is just as guilty of abusing "science" for its own agenda. If you look at what peer reviewed articles in medical journals say about COVID, and then you look at the "pro-science" left-leaning-media coverage - you'll see two entirely different things. The political left picks and chooses the findings it likes to fit the narrative, and exaggerates them for effect. In the United States, if you live…

GMO foods is one area where the much of the left has a solid anti-science bias.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#60

Post by luckylion »

GavinMcG wrote: post #51
luckylion wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, there's kooks on the left who go for healing crystals–but that's not incorporated into left politics. Mhh, critical race theory, the whole gender studies joke etc seems to be pretty deeply settled in left politics. It's just something that progressives "like" and therefore don't question the absurdity and consider it "science".

Do they consider it science? I haven't seen racial justice movements incorporating that. And if they do, that's evidence of an orientation toward science that the right actively opposes—i.e. an effort to dress up views with a scientific gloss. You're talking about misusing science, or relying on junk science. Those are problems, of course, but they're not the opposition to the scientific project as a whole that this…

> You're talking about misusing science, or relying on junk science.

I don't think critical race theory and similar stuff is science. They're not misusing it, they're pretending somebody's ramblings are scientific, funding it at universities and then presenting it as "the science is in".

> they're not the opposition to the scientific project as a whole that this article focuses on

If you only pick those parts that you like and invent the rest, that's very much in opposition to the idea of the scientific method.

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