Advice From An Old Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#51

Post by a3camero » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:44 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #39

a3camero wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effecting = Doing Affecting = Being done to You effect change and change affects you. Something was done to your decisions so the right word is "affected".

There are a lot of non-native-English HN participants, and I think this sort of language pedantry 1) accomplishes nothing, as OP will likely still use the wrong word, and 2) discourages those who lack confidence in their language skills from posting what may be very insightful comments.

Ah, I see that my comment came below some other ones but when I was writing it there weren't any others. Might explain the downvoting...

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#52

Post by ghotli » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:48 PM UTC

Peaker wrote: post #33

If he thinks he can learn any programming language in a week, he's still ignorant about programming languages. I challenge his knowledge of/about Haskell, Agda, etc. Also, I am sure there are plenty of "old programmers" who are still excited about programming languages, and think they matter.

You missed the point of his article. I believe Zed has shown that his mind is perfectly capable of seeing and processing the macro picture. Whether that be language theory, software engineering, or whatever he puts his energies towards. I may not agree with some of his opinions but the volume and quality of his output is indeed impressive.

Haskell's type system _is_ complex, but so are most things that are looked upon with foreign eyes. Zed is known for a bit of hyperbole. Are programming languages exciting? Sure, probably at any age. That wasn't his point though. They're just a thing, a tool. To a novice this very well may be novel advice looking upon the rest of us chattering away about the next bit of cooltech on the horizon.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#53

Post by timr » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:52 PM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #45

timr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is a nice sentiment but as someone who has been a programmer for biology and medical research, it's not true. It's just like any other mediocre programming job, but your office is a folding table under a decommissioned fume hood." It depends on your level of domain knowledge. I saw a lot of programmers start into the world of biology seeking "interesting jobs", but with no background in the field. What they don…

I agree with this, but I guess I don't know who he thinks needs this advice. I assumed his advice was for the programmer lackey who wishes they had a more interesting job. I would assume a biophysics PhD in this day and age probably already has been exposed to programming, maybe even in Python. I mean, my sister has an MPH and she had to take SAS programming courses, and she graduated 8 years ago. It's 2011, not 1979…

Yeah, I'd generalize the advice to: don't be a programmer, be a domain expert who happens to write good code.

I think that's still extremely valuable advice in a world where "hackers" are obsessed with the whizziest language, version-control system, editor, database flavor, etc., and other sorts of largely irrelevant technical ephemera that ages like dead fish.

Meanwhile, nobody understands statistics. It's a problem.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#54

Post by glassx » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:53 PM UTC

amackera wrote: post #40

MaysonL wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an old programmer myself, who has learned many languages over the years, and written programs for pay in most of them, learning languages in a day or week is not at all unusual, or difficult. Especially after learning assembly for a few different machines, with widely different instruction set architectures.

It probably depends on how we are defining "learned". Does it mean memorizing all the functions in language x's stdlib? Is it learning the grammar of the language? Is it coding a project of x many lines of code? Have you learned a language when you can write a compiler / interpreter for that language? The concept of "learning" a language is so hopelessly ambiguous it has almost no meaning to me. I would say that I kn…

I believe that "learned" means "learned enough to work professionally with".

Deep knowledge of a language is always very desired, but on the real world very few programmers have it, or even need it. (Not to mention that "deep knowledge" is a very abstract concept on its own too, lol)

Not every professional developer can, for example, write a framework or a compiler from scratch in their language of choice, but they're still productive and fundamental to their team...

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#55

Post by keiferski » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:56 PM UTC

shin_lao wrote: post #36

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art Programming isn't an art. Programming is a craft. The difference is that you can use a craft to make art, but crafting isn't always artistic. Let's not get over our heads and consider ourselves artists because we can code...

The word art, in the past, was used in the same way that we, today, use craft. So, it's not quite that simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art

But let's avoid an argument on the semantics of aesthetics and just leave it at that.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#56

Post by gaius » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 8:57 PM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #4

You know, half the reason Zed Shaw is so well known is not just that he is a prolific coder, but that he is quite an excellent writer as well. Well done Zed. I always appreciate what you write.

Well, other than that he's completely mistaken about the career advice he offers here. I'd be very curious to know if he's ever been the highly-respected programmer in a science lab, or personally knows anyone who is. My science friends tell me the job doesn't exist; any code that needs writing, a grad student will do it sufficiently well (on top of their lab work) for no more money.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#57

Post by gaius » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

mclin wrote: post #13

> People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines. Totally

Totally as in, you have observed this phenomenon first-hand?

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#58

Post by goldmab » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 9:04 PM UTC

Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint.

Zed appears to be saying that he isn't happy as a professional programmer. Some people really enjoy it.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#59

Post by KeyBoardG » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

I think this becomes apparent to anyone with experience with multiple languages and multiple platforms. The language is just the tool you use to accomplish the goal. Its good practice to learn new and different languages and paradigms just to see how they work and how you can take the good and add it to your arsenal.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#60

Post by russellperry » Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

Zed's a strong cup of coffee and guys like him generally play a really healthy role in the community they are a part of, driving discussions in directions they might not have taken and playing the part of Gadfly at Large -- every community needs a Zed to keep from becoming complacent.

"Rails is a Ghetto" notwithstanding, Zed's writing is always worth engaging even when you strongly disagree. In that respect he's always reminded me of Steve Albini.

What Albini would do with Fret Wars, however, is another question entirely.