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Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

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Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#51

Post by ZephyrBlu »

vishnugupta wrote: post #47
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really impervious to changes though? You're almost certainly going to be affected in some way. Also, I don't really see the point in hiring supposedly intelligent engineers and then cutting them out of the decision making process. Btw I'm not even a senior engineer, I'm a _junior_.

I was impacted by some of those decisions for sure but I didn't let that affect me one bit is what meant to say by impervious. In a biggish company you will come to learn that ICs's opinions doesn't matter; at best they will be heard to be ignored later. So as an IC the best thing for me was to focus my energy and skill to create the value the best way I could i.e., shipping software and helping my immediate neighbou…

Oh I've already experienced my opinion not mattering at all. I haven't been put off trying to be involved just yet though.

I'm also more interested in understanding and being involved than simply being frustrated and venting.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#52

Post by lklset »

anonytrary wrote: post #6
TheDudeMan wrote: post #3

10x engineers get it done without others even knowing about it.

And this is how you end up with an entire engineering team that has no idea what the hell is going on. Don't be a "10x engineer". Empower 10 other people around you. That's what the real 10x engineers are doing.

It is not easy to find a team that wants to be "empowered" by a 10x engineer. Usually the 1x engineers focus on irrelevant or counterproductive issues, inundate the 10x with non-feasible suggestions and play office politics.

Upon which the 10x moves to inner emigration and gets work done. For which the "team" gets the credit.

Where are those teams that you speak of? At which companies?

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#53

Post by Nowado »

tootie wrote: post #5
hprotagonist wrote: post #2

https://billwadge.wordpress.com/2019/03/24/laws-of-the-unive... Wadge’s Law (of Meetings). Before every formal meeting there’s a smaller, more exclusive, less formal meeting where all the important decisions are made. This is based on decades of experience in academia and friends’ experience in industry and government. Sometimes there’s an even smaller, more exclusive, less formal pre pre meeting where all the decisi…

I'm a boss type guy and I absolutely do this intentionally but not because it's not really me setting policy as much as I'm focus group testing. I run it past peers or a few influential people who could be receptive. Get them to to think about it and give some feedback. When I bring it up to the group it's because it's been well-received and the other influencers are ready to back it. Similar to how this article expl…

What about 1) false negatives (when they receive it poorly), 2) various consequences of priming, 3) false positives (where they receive it well and everyone in main group wrongly assumes they are alone in their doubts)?

You can totally run things in authoritarian manner, gathering consent in instrumental way and use outside sources (like sales) for validation. But downsides/side effects/intentional features not said out loud are well known and researched to the point where one has to intentionally choose to remain ignorant of them to sustain a different narrative.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#54

Post by TimTheTinker »

bww wrote: post #13
zaphirplane wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s called an oligarchy in politics. Can’t say it’s a great operational model

You've probably noticed that there aren't really any successful companies that are run as democracies. There are good reasons for that.

There still is a semi-democratic process (barring large-scale network effects for the sake of discussion): whether a given person chooses to become (or stay) a customer. People vote for or against a company’s products/services with their money.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#55

Post by brailsafe »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #51
vishnugupta wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was impacted by some of those decisions for sure but I didn't let that affect me one bit is what meant to say by impervious. In a biggish company you will come to learn that ICs's opinions doesn't matter; at best they will be heard to be ignored later. So as an IC the best thing for me was to focus my energy and skill to create the value the best way I could i.e., shipping software and helping my immediate neighbou…

Oh I've already experienced my opinion not mattering at all. I haven't been put off trying to be involved just yet though. I'm also more interested in understanding and being involved than simply being frustrated and venting.

That's what I thought, until I never understood and was way more emotionally involved than I actually was involved. How will you handle that frustration?

I didn't realize it at the time, but everyone of the same seniority level, but a few years older, already realized not to give a single fuck about anything beyond their immediate sphere of influence. They had already learned that the work truly did not matter, and at a moment's notice they'd be tossed aside as person if given enough reason.

So, don't hope for much if you can't really control it, or spend your time gaining control, as in agency, over decisions that are actionable. Otherwise, burnout is on the horizon, because your expectations and devotion are way higher than you might get out of it, but the stress is maxxed out.

The parent here is perfectly on the money.

I'd also extend this to other areas of life. Probably try not to involve yourself too much with things that you can't influence, or things that you think people should care about but really don't. Not that they aren't inherently good, but you'll grind yourself down trying for nothing specific.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#56

Post by brailsafe »

vishnugupta wrote: post #47
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really impervious to changes though? You're almost certainly going to be affected in some way. Also, I don't really see the point in hiring supposedly intelligent engineers and then cutting them out of the decision making process. Btw I'm not even a senior engineer, I'm a _junior_.

I was impacted by some of those decisions for sure but I didn't let that affect me one bit is what meant to say by impervious. In a biggish company you will come to learn that ICs's opinions doesn't matter; at best they will be heard to be ignored later. So as an IC the best thing for me was to focus my energy and skill to create the value the best way I could i.e., shipping software and helping my immediate neighbou…

This is incredibly insightful, and could have helped my career a lot to hear and actually follow.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#57

Post by antonvs »

whateveracct wrote: post #10

"Build Consensus" - hah, the words of an org chart climber. I've recently joined a BigCo (as a senior+ engineer), and the culture here isn't building consensus (out of authentic building blocks) - it's a toxic "we must be consensus after every meeting." There's always a "champion" idea (but you can bring a "challenger" idea so people feel heard), there's always a need to "be in alignment" after every 45 min chunk of…

> "Build Consensus" - hah, the words of an org chart climber.

Not necessarily. You want to convince your team or other teams to adopt a new tool or practice? You need to build consensus.

It's a good skill to have if you want to be able to shape your workplace to your liking. It doesn't necessarily have to involve org chart climbing at all.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#58

Post by apabepa »

vishnugupta wrote: post #36
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously don't know why this engineer reacts the way they do, but I can see myself reacting that way not because of the change itself but because there was no advance warning or discussion.

> because there was no advance warning or discussion. As a manager I learned to keep my senior engineer pre-informed the hard way. Personally, when I was an IC, I was totally fine not being kept in the loop because I was impervious to such news or changes. So I just assumed that’s how it’s with everyone. Clearly I was wrong. That said, it is important to release that pre-information in an informal fashion lest they s…

What is an IC? I don't recognize the acronym in this context

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#59

Post by ZephyrBlu »

brailsafe wrote: post #55
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I've already experienced my opinion not mattering at all. I haven't been put off trying to be involved just yet though. I'm also more interested in understanding and being involved than simply being frustrated and venting.

That's what I thought, until I never understood and was way more emotionally involved than I actually was involved. How will you handle that frustration? I didn't realize it at the time, but everyone of the same seniority level, but a few years older, already realized not to give a single fuck about anything beyond their immediate sphere of influence. They had already learned that the work truly did not matter, and a…

Caring too much results in burnout, but I think not caring at all is just as damaging. I would rather experience some frustration than feel completely disconnected from my work.

I'm not quite foolish enough to think that I will be able to control how things work no matter whether I'm a junior or senior. Even if my involvement was limited to observing, that would still be a win to me though.

> Probably try not to involve yourself too much with things that you can't influence, or things that you think people should care about but really don't

I appreciate the warning, though I think that I've already cultivated this type of attitude. I have a healthy amount of cynicism towards certain things thanks to reading about other people's experiences.

By the way, I'm curious what sort of companies you have worked in. Non-tech companies, tech companies, FAANG, etc?

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#60

Post by vishnugupta »

apabepa wrote: post #58
vishnugupta wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there was no advance warning or discussion. As a manager I learned to keep my senior engineer pre-informed the hard way. Personally, when I was an IC, I was totally fine not being kept in the loop because I was impervious to such news or changes. So I just assumed that’s how it’s with everyone. Clearly I was wrong. That said, it is important to release that pre-information in an informal fashion lest they s…

What is an IC? I don't recognize the acronym in this context

Individual Contributor. i.e., those who don’t manage people.
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