Overview of Early Electric Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#51

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #4

Robotbeat wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as th…

> (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) Curious how you are calculating this. I usually spend about 60-120 seconds refilling my tank once every 300 miles. (15 gallon tank, about 30 mpg). Because gas stations are everywhere, I never have to plan a specific route based on availability of gas stations, or use an app to find where the stations are, or even think about how much gas I have, as I k…

I’d time your next fuel stop. Start a phone video recording and measure the time from making the right turn into the station and stop it once you’re back on the road. It’s never going to be 2 minutes and will often be more like 10 minutes.

In contrast, if you have a plug at your house, you spend well under a minute to plug and unplug.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#52

Post by ianai » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#53

Post by mattlondon » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #52

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.

250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3 does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you go take a piss is another 40 miles range added)

https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#54

Post by lenkite » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #5

Robotbeat wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as th…

No, you need to think about what it means when all cars are electric. Current charging speeds lead to long queues at chargers like this: https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-... No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350 kW to allow for more cars to be served…

They really need to make swappable batteries which are pre-charged and ready to 'fit in'. This current charging network simply does not scale IMHO.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#55

Post by Robotbeat » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

literallycancer wrote: post #50

Robotbeat wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as th…

Let's see. A 2011 diesel sedan can go about 900km before refueling. There's maybe 2 charging stations within 50 km of my central European location. So, the best experience I can have with an electric car right now is to spend a 100k on a car that doesn't work unless I live next to the charging station, or takes a day to charge. Oh and the car that I already have is not designed by Californians, so there's no stupid s…

That would explain why Electric cars aren’t popular in Norway... oh wait: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/02/norway-at-79-1-plugin-e...

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#56

Post by Robotbeat » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

samcheng wrote: post #21

bobthepanda wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also this assumes you have a driveway that has a charge point hooked up. This does nothing for, say, most apartment buildings which don’t have charge points, or people who park on the street.

That’s true; we’re going to want a substantial improvement in charging infrastructure over the next decade.

We need outlets in apartment parking lots (they already have light poles, and block heater outlets are common in northern areas) and off-street parking. It’s pretty cheap to just add outlets.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#57

Post by Robotbeat » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #34

samcheng wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This metaphor doesn’t make sense to me. As a matter of course, a gasoline car needs gasoline; unless you live on a farm with delivered fuel, that means going to the gas station for it. An electric car needs only electricity to operate, which is already distributed via wires to everyone’s home. Both cars need tires; electric cars also need significantly less scheduled maintenance. No oil changes, no timing belt, etc.

The point being that estimating the expectation of something by excluding an important part of the event space yields a false estimate. No one believes that everyone always charges their cars at home and that charging stations are not needed, otherwise there would be no demand to build them. But when called out on the inconvenience of these stations there is a retreat to "oh, I only charge at home" and so that is the…

It’s not a retreat. I drive a plug-in electric hybrid car, and I almost never visit a gas or charging station. Maybe every 6 months (I only use a little gas if I exceed the 35 mile electric range... I never drive 400 miles a day except on long road trips). I just charge at home. It’s way more convenient than gas stations.

People who have never owned electric cars just don’t grok this. Yes, some people live in apartments which often have no outlets for charging your car (altho they definitely do some places), but this is a minority of people in the US and so it’s fair to say that overall you likely will spend a lot less time charging than a typical gas car owner spends at gas stations. It’s a perfectly defensible statement.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#58

Post by zozin » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#59

Post by markvdb » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #58

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.

Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised:

- direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric)

- oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0].

- wind and solar electricity production subsidies.

- road infrastructure building and maintenance.

  - Road and fuel taxes do not cover this.

  - Usually higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That could change with battery and charging tech improvements though...

- ...

One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included:

- oil wars.

- untaxed negative environmental externalities:

  - oil spills

  - CO2 and other harmful gas emissions

  - car tire particles from both  ICE and electric cars ...

[0] http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/uploads/ported/images/dow... .

Re: Overview of Early Electric Cars

#60

Post by bobajeff » Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #25

It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on hacker news. First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small. Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins. I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs. Sigh.

They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars used.

Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge?

That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.