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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#51

> I was even madder when I found the data science interns hired in a parallel recruitment process had been submitted to technical challenges. That's the miracle of "affirmative action" or whatever you want to call it. When looking at candidates internally, if a company decides to do affirmative action there are those that you know are there because of their skills (non-diverse individuals) and there are the other one…

That's one take. Another take is that people want chums at work. An average person hires someone they see themselves as being friends with rather than the best qualified candidate. Animals such as bees, monkeys, and ourselves are also biased to favor their genetic group (kin selection). In other words, you subconsciously favor people who look like you and act like you.

In that light, the non diverse office might be seen as less productive. Maybe this is a bunch of pals goofing off, rather than people hired to do work?

But the whole point of the diversity hire isn't that you get someone who isn't white and that's it. The idea is that for every job, there are thousands of people who are qualified to do it, and among those, there are certainly people from all sorts of walks of life, and you'd spend earnest effort overcoming your subconscious biases by dipping your hand into the pool of equally skilled candidates, and pulling out the one that this overtly white dominated society we live in has held down since forever.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#52
post #14

>I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go. That's what worries me too. I like to throw a racist jokes, especially about my own nation from time to time and I guess I'd have hard time in corpos and companies like faang because polacks tend to lack of thick skin /s

Generally one should read the room before opening the barn door of ethnic jokes.

In other words, it is all about social skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAe867evM18

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#53

>“Carl is a difficult person to work with. But I trust in you to accomplish this. You will use your feminine approach and you’ll be fine.” What's wrong with feminine approach? People use this kind of wording especially when it comes to design - e.g room, or outfit, generally those things that are considered as a areas where women are way better, so? >That social networks can involve as much technology as any video ga…

I agree with your first point but, with regards to the second point, how many people learn coding during gaming?

Do you mean that more people get into gaming because of modding?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree with the validity of cultural fit. if there is a problem with someone fitting into the culture, then it is the culture that needs to change. letting someone go because they don't participate in after-work activities or because they don't drink alcohol is unacceptable. as is letting someone go because of gender differences. yes, some people have a problem working together. carl in the story is a good exampl…

> if there is a problem with someone fitting into the culture, then it is the culture that needs to change. I don't think this is realistic. Suppose I move to Texas and manage to start working for a company that likes to watch rodeos on weekends and listens to country music all day in the office. Meanwhile, I'm a techno guy who can't stand rodeos nor country music. I start to get irritated with the all-day-country th…

i don't expect either of you to change your preferences, but i do expect everyone, and in this case you too, to not put so much weight on your personal preferences, and to stop to expect others to conform to them. there is no reason that you could not get along. that part of the culture is what needs to change. everyone needs to be more tolerant of different preferences and interests. in other words the culture of the company needs to change to be more tolerant

and you are right of course, the larger the company, the more difficult the change.

company culture comes from the top. it is the leaders that need to give good examples.

i'd say though that 20 people should still be manageable. as long as everyone knows everyone else.

it takes longer and more effort in larger companies

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#55
post #53

>“Carl is a difficult person to work with. But I trust in you to accomplish this. You will use your feminine approach and you’ll be fine.” What's wrong with feminine approach? People use this kind of wording especially when it comes to design - e.g room, or outfit, generally those things that are considered as a areas where women are way better, so? >That social networks can involve as much technology as any video ga…

I agree with your first point but, with regards to the second point, how many people learn coding during gaming? Do you mean that more people get into gaming because of modding?

>Do you mean that more people get into gaming because of modding?

I meant that some games tend to get people into programming

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#56

I'm sorry you had to go through all of this. As myself being part of a minority, I can only tell you that I do my best to fight for minorities and women first in this IT env that can be rough. Keep faith cause I've worked in different companies where everyone was really accepted and celebrated. Thank you for writing this article: hopefully, straight IT men will hear us and fight too.

Genuine question: Have you read the article? The article is just as much for those who are trying to help women and minorities as it is for those who are biased.

1) Yes 2) Yes agreed. I just hope the people that are biased read this article more than the people who already helping, that's it.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#57

I'm sorry you had to go through all of this. As myself being part of a minority, I can only tell you that I do my best to fight for minorities and women first in this IT env that can be rough. Keep faith cause I've worked in different companies where everyone was really accepted and celebrated. Thank you for writing this article: hopefully, straight IT men will hear us and fight too.

I don't think the poster of this article is the author

Oops thanks you right. Nvm.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#58

Oh, come on! Dozens of threads and thousands of comments for the weekly Dr. Seuss pearl-clutching. But mentioning that, on occasion, tech orgs are shitty to women is immediately flagged? Whose the snowflake that can’t take any criticism and wants to stop others from seeing it here?

Please don't post like this—it does nothing to help, and you're just stoking a flamewar, guaranteed to get dumber and nastier as it gets going, with this flamebait and name-calling.

The way to help is to let us know. We don't come close to seeing everything.

The way to let us know is by emailing hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines say. Fortunately another user followed them and did so.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frustrating that we can't vouch for it, either.

Yeah, I'd like to know exactly why that is.

Vouch links appear when a post is [dead]. There are degrees of [flagged] and [flagged][dead] is only the last of them.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#60

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

The reaction you had resonated with me in that it's the feeling I most want to avoid giving someone else. I'm a white male hiring manager who is often incorporating explicit diversity/inclusion strategies into work. It's tricky--like tap dancing around all the ways that the work can go wrong. And this is one I overindex for. I never want someone to think they are a token.

IMO, there are five main motivations for having a diversity & inclusion strategy. One is legal, to avoid breaking a law or facing a lawsuit. One is PR so that general public doesn't yell at you. The other three are a belief that it's the right thing to do, belief that it creates a more interesting or fun culture, belief that it will make the company more money.

I'm basically subscribed to all five. But I almost always lead with just the last one: diversity & inclusion helps the business by helping the business make better decisions, helps find higher quality candidates, helps avoid product/marketing blindspots that limit the reach of a product. All of those things boil down to: it's good for business.

This is the tap dancing. It's almost uncouth to tell an employee that you only care about their ability to help the business make money. But there's also something really unhealthy about not mentioning it at all. Of course, the business cares about an employee's happiness and positive social impact, but those aren't the foundation of the relationship. The foundation is the thing that allows the employment in the first place, which is making money.

I like leading with that good-for-business foundation because then if, say, I went out recruiting Native Americans, they can see a visible concrete motivation beyond tokenism. It's a relatively straightforward business hypothesis to think: "I bet this group of people doesn't see a lot of recruiters so if I get good at recruiting from that group then I'll be facing less competition from other recruiters."

That's a hypothesis that I've found to generally be true, especially when paired with at least a mediocre level of inclusivity after you make a hire. It's like a sad arbitrage that allows you to take advantage of industry bias. Statistically, hiring from an underrepresented group means fewer counter offers, and if you follow up by creating good opportunity for growth, a lot of people will way out perform their peers simply because other jobs had never given them much opportunity.

It's all about how do you talk about these issues which are real, and which are impossible for me to viscerally understand with my own limited & privileged life experience, in a way that doesn't sound like charity and instead sounds like raising the bar. "I know your past resume sucks, but you're here because we think you could out perform your past work by a lot."

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