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100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

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Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#51
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were already gifted many billions of dollars in the past for this same basic purpose but they pocketed the money. Very little government money has been spent on broadband. Federal funding for broadband dates back only to the Obama administration. And cable companies have largely not received this money. You’re thinking of something else.

To avoid another repeated thread, just read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7709556 I just realized that you were posting on that thread as well.

Whatever conclusions you reach from the points made in that thread, there is an important additional point here. That thread is talking about telephone companies. OP is talking about cable.

We tend to think of both of them as just “broadband” today, but the regulatory structure is totally different. The central premise of the notion that telephone companies received “billions of dollars from the government” is that the government lifted rate regulation on telephone companies in the 1990s. Rate regulation told the companies what they could charge for local phone service. The argument is that phone companies made $200 billion more than they would have had had those regulations remained in place.

I disagree with that assertion for phone companies, as addressed in the thread above. But even on its own merits that argument is not applicable to cable companies. Cable companies weren’t rate regulated (except that in some places there is a regulated minimum television service they must provide at a government-specified price). There was no government action in the 1990s that contemplated subsidies to create incentives for cable companies to build fiber.

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#52

Imagine how good our network technology policy would be if the Senate weren't run by septagenarians and octogenarian. I fear that data caps for home internet will become standard. There is no technological reason for these caps. For wireless, they could be defended by arguing that companies only get to use so much spectrum because of FCC laws. But the only limit for home internet is the ISP's willingness to deploy eq…

Flatrate models usually means that a large majority of users actually covers the costs for a the minority high consumers. It is true that the marginal cost for more transmitted data is almost zero, but the overhead costs of running (and expanding) networks are certainly not. Cost has to be covered and you could very well argue that it makes sense that the large consumers pay more.

Besides maybe above the 98th percentile, data peering costs are very low that the physical infrastructure dominates the cost of service for residential users.

Since residential connects are over subscribed anyway, it is trivial to make users throttle during peak demand based on their current/historical usage.

If you use Cloudflare's costs and peering:transit ration from 2014 (which is almost certainly cheaper now); 1Mbps/month costs $8. [1]

1 Mbps/month is ~329GBytes. A 1TB data cap would be just ~3.1 Mbps/month costing $24.8.

I'd estimate that a last mile ISP could probably get an effective rate of half or less since connecting to end users/consumers is an advantage. And in a lot of cases, the same ISP offering residential service is also selling transit to other networks so in a way the data is already paid for by the time it reaches your local ISP.

[1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-relative-cost-of-bandwidth-a...

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#53

Lets try and suss out some of the multiple issues with US internet: -regulating ISPs as a free market is, to be hyperbolic, a disaster. there is effectively a monopoly in most parts of the country. -25/3 Mbps is a very reasonable speed for most people. the issue is that its provided on a best effort basis that is never maintained for long, if at all. netflix says thats enough to stream UHD[0] -FTA: "Those data points…

> -regulating ISPs as a free market is, to be hyperbolic, a disaster. there is effectively a monopoly in most parts of the country. starlink is changing that, as these articles and letters are being written.

I agree that Starlink will be a game changer for many people, but I just don't see how they can be expected to replace traditional terrestrial ISPs in major population centers.

Beaming internet from space solves a ton of problems for anyone out at the ends of rural copper, or using p2p systems, or where there simply isn't another alternative.

But using myself as an example, I live in a part of NYC where there is fiber internet in the street in front of my building - and my landlord has zero obligation to allow the 60-ish apartments in the building to access it. We're stuck on legacy cable, which has abysmal upload speeds and congestion issues.

The dense urban or suburban environments theoretically have more options, but thats not always reality... and I'm not sure that tens of millions of people replacing their local ISP with satellite is desirable, or even technically viable. New provider options are important, but making sure access to the existing options is equitable and reasonable (across all the various local governments, providers, middlemen, etc) is important too.

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#54
post #46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were already gifted many billions of dollars in the past for this same basic purpose but they pocketed the money. Very little government money has been spent on broadband. Federal funding for broadband dates back only to the Obama administration. And cable companies have largely not received this money. You’re thinking of something else.

I think the Telecommunications Act of 1996 was supposed to help improve Internet access through its Universal Service provision. Of course all the telecoms pocketed the money and didn't do shit. https://www.fcc.gov/general/universal-service

The 1996 telecom act had an unfunded statement of policy to that end. But the universal service fund wasn’t used for broadband until 2013: https://connectednation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/caf_p.... Larger carriers weren’t covered until 2015. And it has not been a lot of money: https://www.telecompetitor.com/ahead-of-rdof-caf-lives-on-as...

> AT&T and CenturyLink accepted all funding for all states for which they accepted CAF funding. For AT&T, seventh year CAF funding totals approximately $427 million for 18 states. For CenturyLink, the total seventh year funding totals approximately $503 million for 33 states.

Over 7 years, AT&T has received half a billion dollars from the feds. That’s not a lot of money for building fiber. In rural high cost areas, where that money is supposed to be targeted, that might be like 20,000 homes. AT&T spends over $10 billion per year on wireline upgrades and maintenance: https://www.fiercetelecom.com/telecom/at-t-dedicates-40-40b-... ($16 billion in 2017). Over that 7 year period you’re talking $100+ billion in investment from AT&T versus $0.5 billion from the feds. Do you see why that money hasn’t moved the needle at all?

To my knowledge, Comcast has never received universal service fund (now called the connect America fund) money.

We can argue about whether universal service money has been used efficiently. But the idea that companies like Comcast received billions of dollars from the feds to build fiber everywhere is a very Trumpian misrepresentation (taking something with a tiny grain of truth and spinning it into a tall tale).

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#55
While we're at it, let's prevent ISPs from disallowing us to run a business on our home internet. Why should it matter to them how we use our bits? Sell us on a support plan and higher uptime, sure, but there's no reason we should be disallowed from private enterprise because we're not "paying for a business account".

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#56
post #37

Imagine how good our network technology policy would be if the Senate weren't run by septagenarians and octogenarian. I fear that data caps for home internet will become standard. There is no technological reason for these caps. For wireless, they could be defended by arguing that companies only get to use so much spectrum because of FCC laws. But the only limit for home internet is the ISP's willingness to deploy eq…

Are millennials any different? Outside tech, I don’t know anybody who cares about broadband as an aside, except when pushing a different political angle such as inequality.

I genuinely wonder about the effects of later generations growing up in these conditions. It feels ripe for learned helplessness. "Well it's just always been bad" is a common, if ineffective response.

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#57

Lets try and suss out some of the multiple issues with US internet: -regulating ISPs as a free market is, to be hyperbolic, a disaster. there is effectively a monopoly in most parts of the country. -25/3 Mbps is a very reasonable speed for most people. the issue is that its provided on a best effort basis that is never maintained for long, if at all. netflix says thats enough to stream UHD[0] -FTA: "Those data points…

> -regulating ISPs as a free market is, to be hyperbolic, a disaster. there is effectively a monopoly in most parts of the country. > all in all, this reeks of regulatory capture to me. if we're gonna have a serious discussion about internet infrastructure, i think the starting point is how we classify ISPs and where in the city-state-federal hierarchy the responsibility lies. changing a 26 to a 100 is a cool bullet…

> ISPs are generally granted explicit or effective monopolies by local governments

Granting ISPs explicit monopolies has been illegal since the 1992 cable act. Show me a franchise agreement that has an exclusivity provision. They’re public documents.

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#58
post #36

in Romania you can't even get lower than 100Mbs at the largest internet providers (even 100Mbs in some cases) https://www.digi.ro/servicii/internet

I'm I reading that right that a "940/450 Mbps" fiber plan is ~$10 a month??

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#59
post #50
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something going on here that is organized toward some goal, but it doesn't make sense. Usually troll farms work for financial interests, but my comment wasn't taking any side. If the votes came from thinking HN readers, I would have expected refutory responses. (meta) It's reasonable that we don't see who downvoted us, but it would be very interesting to see the karma of each account that downvoted.

I didn't vote you down, but your comment didn't really add a lot of value. It's like whenever expanding roads come up, people say "but this encourages more traffic!" True, but not really the point.

But this is HN, and a lot of us are responsible for the state of web browsing! (Plus a lot are junior and have not considered these performance topics.) Absolutely everyone's connection to the internet should be fast and unfiltered, but if the supply side doesn't behave responsibly, the gains will be lost.

(edit-added)

And let's pause a moment to consider actual bandwidth needs. viop, video calls, and 1080 streaming all need less than 10mbps.

Online gaming usually benefits more from low latency than from bandwidth.

Honestly, only downloading files (app and OS updates) really benefits from bandwidth above 10mbps. And to be fair, now that phone, app, and OS updates are 1GB+, there is some value in increasing bandwidth.

Most day to day problems come from unreliable networks, where latency spikes, or from heavily throttled upload speeds which effectively tie up the overall connection.

And finally, the issue is not in forcing providers to offer reasonable performance, but instead to undo the last 20 years of corporate-government cozying which has been allowed to increase dramatically in the US. This has resulted in effective monopolies with high prices and low performance - and no alternatives.

Re: 100Mbps uploads and downloads should be US broadband standard, senators say

#60

Lets try and suss out some of the multiple issues with US internet: -regulating ISPs as a free market is, to be hyperbolic, a disaster. there is effectively a monopoly in most parts of the country. -25/3 Mbps is a very reasonable speed for most people. the issue is that its provided on a best effort basis that is never maintained for long, if at all. netflix says thats enough to stream UHD[0] -FTA: "Those data points…

The FCC is a captured agency, I’m not sure there is enough ambiguity about that to wonder
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