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Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

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Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#51

Post by lbriner »

rileymat2 wrote: post #11
tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

There is a lot of reasonable opinions on the topic, but I would consider design and requirements bugs that render the software unfit for purpose to be bugs as well.

If they were design and requirements then fine, but you cannot consider something that was not asked or paid for as a bug. As with many cock-ups, somebody did not know enough to ask for the right thing.

On top of that, someone should have been in the room to tell the State Governor that their proposed change was not supported in software and needed something out-of-band to manage it.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#52

Post by [deleted] »

neartheplain wrote: post #44

Reminds of the opening scene from the 1985 movie "Brazil." Computer misprints the name on an arrest warrant as the result of a (literal) bug, and nightmarish tragicomedy ensures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzFmPFLIH5s Highly underrated movie, with ever more contemporary relevance.

[deleted]

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#53

Post by ironmagma »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #24
crummybowley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

1.5 million prisoners in the USA. You want to go through that list, without software?

We're talking about Arizona. And every prison likely can keep track of its own inmates. If they can't, what are they doing running a prison?

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#54

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

hkh28 wrote: post #29
atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

>The inmates are not viewed as humans

Easy power comes from demonizing people we don't understand or don't like. Our political parties are so addicted to animosity, they've become incapable of functioning without it.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#55

Post by lbriner »

frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

Software that infringes on the public (even if they are criminals) as opposed to software that people can opt to use or not, needs to have a very serious question asked at design time: If the software produces an incorrect result, what mechanism exists to override it/audit it/provide damages etc.

The fact people are not asking that is worrying. I understand why the system was not designed to do something that happened later (even if it could have been reasonably foreseen) but the fact that it was implemented with no override is really the scandal.

I don't know whether this comes down to an amount of power that exists in a Governor that means the rest of the organisation can't say, "sorry Guv, but we can't do this because the software wasn't written to". If TV is to be believed, Governors want things done yesterday and you worry about the problems.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#56

Post by mattmcknight »

opportune wrote: post #17
tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

This is why I think custom software contracting and vendorization is a “noob-trap”. Software needs to be updated and maintained and you never know when you start writing it what the real requirements are. If I were a taxpayer in this state I’d be angry that my money would be going to a series of middlemen (e.g. a procurement consultant, program manager on the gov side, a contractor manager, the contracting company’s…

Unfortunately the pay scale for state software developers never (I almost never say never) has a proper differential over other employees with the same level of experience, meaning they are often below 10th percentile of market rate, and thus the employees that end up in those jobs tend to be among the least skilled and motivated people I've ever dealt with. Even though contractors mess up, you can fire them. What's probably better is to keep a contractor available on an hourly rate for maintenance like this, rather than pay per change order.

I also find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucratic control that they have been unable to otherwise exercise, with the effect of the people the project initiator wants to use the software simply working around it. They then institute all sorts of punishments and controls to insure it must be used. This then results in the kind of insane situation we have here, where you can't do something perfectly legal because "computer says no".

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#57

Post by lbriner »

edoceo wrote: post #3

It's like gov system don't even have test cases. They should, and they should be public. Why aren't these softwares for the public open source? See also: employment security sites, cannabis track and trace, driving license, etc. Some of these bugs cause direct financial harm to citizens and this one is much worse! Show me the test cases! Show me the code!!

I think there is still a genuine concern that open-source software allows bad people to find loopholes before the good people do. The last thing you want is someone finding a bug that allows a murderer to get released because the computer said-so.

I think it can be managed but it is a genuine concern nonetheless.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#58

Post by ClumsyPilot »

undecisive wrote: post #19
djrogers wrote: post #5

I'd hesitate to call this a software bug, this is a complete breakdown of planning. FTA - "“Currently this calculation is not in ACIS at all,” the report states. “ACIS can calculate 1 earned credit for every 6 days served, but this is a new calculation.”" tldr; a new law was passed that allowed for a different credit schedule for days served, and the system hasn't been updated to make that calculation.

It's the problem with silver bullets like YAGNI: Laws change, if your system is dependent on laws, then you can be sure that new rules will need to be added. You need a system that is configurable, you can be sure you are going to need it. Of course, if there's money to be made in having a change-resistant system, well that's a different story. YAGNIAYWPTTNFI (You ARE gonna need it, and you will pay through the nose…

Now we can place configurable smart contracts on blockchaim that keep track of your prisoners!

PrisonChain©

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#59

Post by lbriner »

giantg2 wrote: post #43

Yeah, this sucks. It's (unfortunately) not surprising. My wife had a citation that affected our liberties. The cop even knew that he didn't have probable cause but let the charge stand for more than a month. Nobody in the system cares. The magistrates and judges don't care, even though the new charge should be dismissed with prejudice over this and other rights violations. The supervisors and IA for the state police…

In the UK, people often sue for wrongful arrest etc. and I though the US was much worse for litigation. Is it simply that the victims are mainly poor and not connected enough to sue or is the legal system there really that immune from action due to wrongful process?

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#60

Post by ashtonkem »

atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

Well, prison fundamentally is about holding someone against their will. The specific issue here is that they’re being held contrary to the rules laid out by society.
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