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“User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

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Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#51

Post by ethbr0 »

luplex wrote: post #41

I did an internship with a very profitable Swedish mobile game before the pandemic, and it was really interesting to see the doublethink: everyone knew we were making a drug, but people avoided speaking of it in that way. It was always "our most engaged players readily spend on in-game items", and never "the most addicted users spend money so they can continue playing" It was a great workplace, but I don't think it w…

F2P-with-purchases games should (a) require disclaimers, (b) be illegal and stiffly penalized for allowing minors to play, & (c) have their algorithms open to a gaming regulator (in the same way Las Vegas does).

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#52

Post by red-montaigne »

luplex wrote: post #41

I did an internship with a very profitable Swedish mobile game before the pandemic, and it was really interesting to see the doublethink: everyone knew we were making a drug, but people avoided speaking of it in that way. It was always "our most engaged players readily spend on in-game items", and never "the most addicted users spend money so they can continue playing" It was a great workplace, but I don't think it w…

Great example of how language is a tool for thinking, but it's also a tool for not thinking. If you want to ignore or obfuscate something, you can seal it off with euphemisms and misrepresentations, kind of like putting an interface in front of an implementation. And as you pointed out, you can use this tactic to deceive not only others but also yourself.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#53

Post by joshspankit »

montenegrohugo wrote: post #8

I'd add that algorithmic feeds are another part of the triad (quartet?), and probably the worst offender. Personalized addictive content is on the rise (tiktok, YouTube, even Facebook and Twitter curate your newsfeed "for you" ), and these ml-determined feeds drive engagement to the highest possible levels, leading to an incredible waste of time, a distorted world view (mostly the posts with the highest engagement wi…

The other component is that algorithmic feeds encourage echo chambers. People engage with outrage most when they are on the “same side” of it.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#54

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

Fricken wrote: post #36
s_dev wrote: post #7

Anything that provides a 'hit' stands a chance of being addictive. Including cheeseburgers and fun video games. >Most alarming is the “internet points”. On Reddit, this is called Karma. On Twitter, it’s likes and retweets. Ostensibly, this simple numeric score displays the community’s overall attitude toward a given piece of content. On its face, this appears to be a radically democratic concept; Everyone can vote! T…

Marshall McLuhan, the media theorist, pointed out the hazards of "Peer to peer electronic media" in the 1960s with uncanny accuracy. Calling someone a luddite when your own views are as anachronistic as they are is ridiculous. And stop flattering yourself by calling social media 'tech'. Every industry uses technology, calling it 'tech' doesn't distinguish it in any way. Social media is a medium for a exchange like a…

This comment is as equally polarizing as GP, just in the opposite direction. You can have social media be tech, have some net effect on society (whether that's good or bad is literally being debated right now) and be addictive.

As with anything in life, there is nuance. Social media isn't a great satan and it isn't god's gift, it's somewhere in between.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#55

Post by Kaze404 »

hawktheslayer wrote: post #27

For me the pandemic has actually allowed me to spend more time outdoors and with my children and as a result less time online. We have been taking walks daily and started gardening. I've cut down social media time to almost nothing on all major platforms (HN is my last "addiction"). The author claims the pandemic forced us inside and on social media--do people find this true for them?

It definitely is true for me. I haven't left my house for anything but doctor's appointments in 11 months. The most exercise I get is when I walk to my condominium's garbage disposal room.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#57

Post by slothtrop »

Mauricebranagh wrote: post #30
WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #18

I always thought it was pretty obvious when YouTube rolled out screen time reminders. It had nothing to do with anything but minimizing liability in case the general public ever catches on to what they are doing to kids mental health. What’s hilarious is they probably have some “data retention policy” and will get away with it. I guess it’s why SV engineers want to care about social issues so much. When you’re up in…

How is this that much different to similar "concerns" about kids watching to much tv back in the 60's 70's etc.

With youtube you're one "recommended" video away from both morally dubious content targeting kids, and qanon conspiracy content.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#58

Post by slothtrop »

Fricken wrote: post #36
s_dev wrote: post #7

Anything that provides a 'hit' stands a chance of being addictive. Including cheeseburgers and fun video games. >Most alarming is the “internet points”. On Reddit, this is called Karma. On Twitter, it’s likes and retweets. Ostensibly, this simple numeric score displays the community’s overall attitude toward a given piece of content. On its face, this appears to be a radically democratic concept; Everyone can vote! T…

Marshall McLuhan, the media theorist, pointed out the hazards of "Peer to peer electronic media" in the 1960s with uncanny accuracy. Calling someone a luddite when your own views are as anachronistic as they are is ridiculous. And stop flattering yourself by calling social media 'tech'. Every industry uses technology, calling it 'tech' doesn't distinguish it in any way. Social media is a medium for a exchange like a…

> stop flattering yourself

What does this even mean? Why would it be flattering himself?

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#59

Post by Kaze404 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #51
luplex wrote: post #41

I did an internship with a very profitable Swedish mobile game before the pandemic, and it was really interesting to see the doublethink: everyone knew we were making a drug, but people avoided speaking of it in that way. It was always "our most engaged players readily spend on in-game items", and never "the most addicted users spend money so they can continue playing" It was a great workplace, but I don't think it w…

F2P-with-purchases games should (a) require disclaimers, (b) be illegal and stiffly penalized for allowing minors to play, & (c) have their algorithms open to a gaming regulator (in the same way Las Vegas does).

I play a lot of Apex Legends and recently I found out that when you go purchase a loot box it explicitly tells you the chance of each item's rarity. My initial thought was that it's a step in the right direction (of banning loot boxes entirely), but it also made me wonder how anyone can be sure those numbers are actually true in their backend.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#60

Post by salawat »

SamuelAdams wrote: post #12

Can't remember who this quote came from but it went something like this: "The only two things that call their clients 'users' is drugs and software."

It actually depends a lot on circumstance and half the work of software engineering is figuring out your different use cases. Every aspect of a system can have a different beneficiary.

Data analysts are interested in different things than end consumers, who are interested in different things than admins or sponsors...

If you can't split a generic abstraction of 'users' down further, you're either umplementing a very generic tool, or you're simply not standing up a system where the idea of access control is important.

The rub is how nefariously sneaky that access control abstraction can be employed as a fundamental tool.

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