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An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

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Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#51

Post by ip26 »

JoeyBananas wrote: post #21
nimbius wrote: post #9

This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage. Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the ene…

What exactly does this incident have to do with counterintelligence? I think you are using that word incorrectly. I also don't understand what those linked incidents have in common. Sure, the US military isn't invulnerable and there is always risk associated with combat.

I think they are saying the US systematically underestimates the enemy's capability so it probably wasn't actually that surprising an F117 was downed.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#52

Post by pluto9 »

s5300 wrote: post #44
pluto9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not weird at all. Soldiers on opposite sides have a lot in common, just as you might have a lot in common with someone of your profession from a different country. Their conflict is that of their respective countries, or they may think they're serving a good cause. But in either case, it's not personal. It's also a mistake to think that every time a soldier shows an ounce of humanity, they're only doing it to "h…

>>Soldiers are usually not the tortured individuals Hollywood portrays them to be. I don't know nor care of Hollywood portrayals, but you should consider looking at some suicide statistics and then apologizing.

Sure, let me just call up all my buddies from my old platoon and apologize to them because some internet know-it-all said I should feel sorry for them. They're all doing great, so they'll laugh at me, but that's probably just an act. Thanks for enlightening me to their true plight.

Have you looked at the actual numbers? I said usually. The veteran suicide rate is roughly double that of civilians [1]. Obviously that's a problem, but it's still a very small minority. Veterans are not dropping like flies.

[1] https://backhome.news21.com/article/suicide/

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#53

Post by rjsw »

nimbius wrote: post #9

This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage. Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the ene…

> in 2006 china managed to tail a US aircraft carrier and emerge in torpedo range with a Song 039 type submarine, a generation behind the US, which was previously thought incapable of such an operation.

The alternative version of that story is that the Carrier Group commander was quietly commended for not giving away how far out they detected the submarine.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#54

Post by jki275 »

aerosmile wrote: post #17

There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16 year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one of the guys' jackets that belonged to…

War is almost never about hate or love.

War is a tool of diplomacy.

Both of these men were simply professionals doing their jobs. The one attacking, the one defending. It's unlikely they ever hated each other or even really thought a great deal beyond how to accomplish their respective missions at the time.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#55

Post by pluto9 »

lostlogin wrote: post #50
pluto9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not weird at all. Soldiers on opposite sides have a lot in common, just as you might have a lot in common with someone of your profession from a different country. Their conflict is that of their respective countries, or they may think they're serving a good cause. But in either case, it's not personal. It's also a mistake to think that every time a soldier shows an ounce of humanity, they're only doing it to "h…

I think you are attributing a lot of what goes on to choice - war has a poor track record in this regard and soldiers are often recruited very young and/or conscripted. Even the US recruits soldiers defined by the Convention on the protection of children (below 18). Schools are used for recruiting in many places. This aspect of war is really sad - giving kids and young adults guns and sending them off to shoot people…

I'm talking about the men in this article. Both of them were career military officers. It's fair to say that that was their choice.

Certainly there's propaganda that goes into recruiting naive young people in the US, but it's quite a stretch to equate that with child soldiers. I chose to enlist and so did everyone I served with. The vast majority of us do not regret it or feel that we were conned.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#56

Post by jki275 »

jariel wrote: post #43
nimbius wrote: post #9

This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage. Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the ene…

"stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the war room against the enemy" The U2 has been flying for literally decades, even to this day, relatively unencumbered. The performance ratio is way in the favour of 'confident war room'. Also - it's hard to say anything about submarines, they're so clouded in secrecy, I think the truth tends not to…

It certainly hasn't been flying over the Soviet Union.

It became obsolete in 1960. That doesn't mean it was no longer useful anywhere.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#58

Post by jki275 »

pastrami_panda wrote: post #7

For those curious (the article doesn't address it) it was the bomb hatch that momentarily gave away the planes position. I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of the craft made it to production, since it's widely known that 90 degree angles is a surefire way to get instantly detected on radar.

That's not an oversight. Stealth is a continuum, not a binary thing.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#59

Post by KMag »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #10
pastrami_panda wrote: post #7

For those curious (the article doesn't address it) it was the bomb hatch that momentarily gave away the planes position. I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of the craft made it to production, since it's widely known that 90 degree angles is a surefire way to get instantly detected on radar.

How else do you release bombs? I believe that even modern stealth aircraft are more vulnerable when releasing missiles or bombs. The thing is if the aircraft gets to the point of releasing bombs or missiles it has pretty much done its job. You won't get that far without being stealthy.

The GP is suggesting the doors should have had zig-zag edges.

However, from what I've read, it sounds like radar reflectons from the doors themselves are dwarfed by radar signals bouncing off the upper bulkhead of the bomb bay. If they made the side bulkheads of the bomb bay at 90 degrees to the upper bulkhead, then an incoming radio wave bouncing off both the upper and side bulkheads will leave anti-parallel to its incoming direction... right back at the sending radar. (This geometric identity is used on the laser reflectors left on the moon. They send the laser right back at the sender without having to track the Earth.)

Though, maybe the reporting I've read is just imprecise, and maybe the doors do have a larger radar cross-section than the bomb bays themselves.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#60

Post by rascul »

pluto9 wrote: post #48
effie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should these two men's consciences bother them? It would bother me, so I'm projecting. But good points. I am also more inclined to understand this as a case of people "just working here". Like Germans were.

There's an element of the "just working here" mentality, but it's more than that. I was in Afghanistan more than a decade ago, and in my mind, we were fighting against the abuses and brutality of the Taliban. The guy shooting at me from a mountainside with a PKM was "one of them", a legitimate bad guy. In retrospect, I realize that guy was probably much like me. A young guy, full of testosterone and looking for adven…

> Awhile back I saw a conversation on Reddit between an American soldier who fought in Ramadi (or maybe Fallujah, I can't remember) and an Iraqi soldier who was there at the same time fighting against the Americans.

Any chance you might be able to dig up that link? I think it might be interesting to read it.

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