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Otokichi

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Re: Otokichi

#51

Post by [deleted] »

setr wrote: post #37
jabbany wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)

average life expectancy is a trap -- the distribution is binomial. People tended to either die early, as infants, or live to an average 60.[0] Specifically, if you were age 0, you have an expected lifespan of 40, but by age 10, you have an expected lifespan of 60. Today expected lifespan after reaching age 10 is better, but not as extreme as the average tells you: you'd expect to hit to live to 77. [1] So most people…

[deleted]

Re: Otokichi

#52

Post by ksm1717 »

setr wrote: post #48
ksm1717 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a joke...

I understood that, but your joke was nonsensical. Making jokes about HN being overly pedantic in general, when no pedantry is occurring, is just randomly complaining. There's no context. It would be sensible if you thought there was pedantry in progress..... but you'd be wrong :-)

No I’m saying that the comment that brought up life expectancy was a joke. Responding to that with a 15 pager was the aforementioned pedantry. My comment was not a joke just a cheap shot

Re: Otokichi

#53

Post by AlotOfReading »

runarberg wrote: post #47
yudlejoza wrote: post #5

It just occurred to me, boats have been around way before 1492, and they would drift away by accident, just like in this case, more often than not. Hence, folks from East Asia drifted away and landed on west coast of North America all the time, from time immemorial to 1492, and all of them were designated native/indigenous. Conclusion: Asia to America migration didn't only happen through Bering/Beringia land bridge p…

I feel like people often leave the numerous Inuit and pre-inuit migration across the Bering straight on canoes and kayaks. Follow up questions: Is there any research on how much of pre-inuit culture spread southwards to Indian cultures? How much Asian culture did the Inuit and pre-inuit cultures take with them to America?

People don't leave out the connections, it's just that there isn't much firm evidence to outline whatever nature it had. More difficult statements about relationships outside the circumpolar world remain purely speculative.

As for the follow up questions, Asia is a big place, and India is on the order of 4,000-5,000 miles from the Bering strait where pre-Thule cultures likely originated. There's no identifiable, historic relationship between modern Inuit/eskimos and people in India. However, they remain closely related to the Yuit on the other side of the strait.

Re: Otokichi

#54

Post by totetsu »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #16
tpmx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ship building technology development is an important factor you didn't factor in. You'd need a ship that can survive crossing the pacific and also enough rations of food to survive the trip. In this case they also used some desalination tech to survive those 14 months, per the article. Edit: More details: https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 > The crew had an adequate food supply (rice from the cargo, supplemented w…

From the essay you linked: "Traces of Japan were not entirely unknown in the Northwest. More than 1,000 Japanese ships are estimated to have disappeared during the Exclusion Era (1633-1854). Most presumably sank in storms, but iron fittings and other remnants of some of those ships washed up on the Northwest coast over time. A few drifted to coastal areas farther south with survivors on board. According to historian…

I was reading an historical newspaper article from West coast America about a sole shipwreck survivor whos boat drifted from Japan after a storm in that time period.

Re: Otokichi

#55

Post by sixstringtheory »

baxtr wrote: post #19

I would love to see that life story in a film (any Netflix people around?!). One of the most captivating Wikipedia entries I’ve ever read.

The article mentions that there's a film from 1983 starring Johnny Cash. It's not even on Netflix DVD but I found it hosted on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So

Starts with Japanese audio and has Japanese subtitles, but the film itself is in English.

Re: Otokichi

#56

Post by runarberg »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #53
runarberg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people often leave the numerous Inuit and pre-inuit migration across the Bering straight on canoes and kayaks. Follow up questions: Is there any research on how much of pre-inuit culture spread southwards to Indian cultures? How much Asian culture did the Inuit and pre-inuit cultures take with them to America?

People don't leave out the connections, it's just that there isn't much firm evidence to outline whatever nature it had. More difficult statements about relationships outside the circumpolar world remain purely speculative. As for the follow up questions, Asia is a big place, and India is on the order of 4,000-5,000 miles from the Bering strait where pre-Thule cultures likely originated. There's no identifiable, hist…

Sorry, I meant Indian culture as in American Indian. Native American is confusing in this context as it could refer to Inuits as well.

The Asian culture I’m thinking about would be from Siberia or Kamchatka.

Interestingly, the Ainu people historicly lived pretty close to the Kamchatka peninsula (perhaps even on it), guessing that some culture that later was adopted by the Japanese from the Ainu but was also brought to North-America by proxy of pre-inuit peoples is not that far off.

EDIT: And as for what they brought over, couldn’t the American Indians further south have benefited from escaped domesticated animals like the dog breeds they brought over from Asia. And wouldn’t the closest neighboring tribes have learned different hunting techniques from each other, techniques that would have traveled south. Did pre-inuit people never trade or fight with American Indian people? I’m sure there is a lot of interesting interactions going on there that we are missing.

Re: Otokichi

#57

Post by aasasd »

> drifted for 14 months, during which the crew lived on desalinated seawater and rice

Doesn't sound like fun.

Re: Otokichi

#58

Post by Clewza313 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

Is there anybody who could confirm that even castaways were subject to death penalty upon return to the shogunate? That sounds really cruel.

Yes, this was a well-known part of the Sakoku policy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

Having heard what had happened in much of the rest of Asia, the shoguns were extremely concerned about Christian proselytizing, and this was their extreme but effective way of making it impossible. All local Christian converts were also put to death.

Re: Otokichi

#59

Post by aasasd »

themodelplumber wrote: post #34
saberdancer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they wanted to get them to shore, they could have thrown anchor at any spot other than next to a fortress armed with guns. Then you row them to the shore and leave. It's not like there was mass surveillance or ability to identify anyone. It's likely the captain had no big incentive to go out of his way for these Japanese so when he wasn't allowed in port, he just left.

Good points, I took a deeper look and found this article with more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident > King anchored at a safe distance, out of range of the shore batteries. Men from several small fishing ships boarded the SS Morrison, and sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the…

> sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship.

That reads like comedy.

Re: Otokichi

#60

Post by exolymph »

astrange wrote: post #50

I thought this was going to be one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings like "ikigai" and "tsundoku". > Once in Macau, Otokichi, Kyukichi and Iwakichi were welcomed by Karl Gutzlaff, a German missionary and Chinese translator for the British Government. Gutzlaff, who had views on evangelizing Japan, enthusiastically learned the Japanese language from the trio, and with t…

> one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings

...you mean, the Japanese terms for philosophical concepts relevant to / embedded in their culture?

this would be like complaining if Japanese people latched onto "amen" as a statement of completion and finality. uh yeah, the concept is applicable across various different cultural configurations

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