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Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

reuters.com

51–60 of 72 posts

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#51
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this reason it’s important we start using cash again, and not attend shops and restaurants that don’t take it. Nowadays we have brutal armed robberies like never before, but using non-traceable currency is important for freedom.

Source? I would have thought “brutal armed robberies” were way down from historical highs.

Sweden has dramatically changed in the last 20 years and I would guess most here have the old homogenous Sweden in mind.

Like many other countries have had before (such as USA), we are now living with brutal gangs grouped together per ethnicity, except for native Swedes, Finns, and Sami people though. The worst of the new wave of robberies we call “humiliation robberies” (förnedringsrån, you can search with Google Translate) where the victim (mostly natives) is not only forced to withdraw from the ATM, but tortured, forced to undress, pissed upon, forced to say humiliating things, or raped (also men and boys).

The last of many examples to make headlines, where the perpetrators were found, was two young guys in Solna who were forced onto a church yard at night where they were beaten, raped, tortured and robbed. Mainstream media in Sweden does not publish details so I’ll link you one mainstream media article, and one independent blogger - again you might want to use a translation service to read it

https://petterssonsblogg.se/2021/01/07/ali-och-amin-doms-for...

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/solna-man-misshandlade-pa-k...

Young Swedes today know where not to walk after dark in a way their parents never thought about.

If my personal account, the example, or a search into “förnedringsrån” isn’t what you’re looking for, please let me know! You are absolutely right to want to verify claims.

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#52
post #32
post #15

As a Swedish person I don't see the point at all: Why would I want to use this? I would rather have a decentralized system of various banks and global companies (Mastercard, Visa, etc) track my transactions and spread out that risk, instead of one single state actor. I could also use, you know, cash. Digital cash is first and foremost an instrument for new ways to do monetary policy, as more countries (like Sweden an…

Spread what risk? They are already making money of you. The risk they take is really small compared to what kind of money they are making...

Keyword: track. As in the privacy concern of the government having direct insight into all your financial transactions.

Sure, they already have the opportunity to demand that information from Swedish commercial banks and other financial institutions, but it's not as convenient as the direct control they have with a centrally managed digital currency.

The really nice thing with fungible physical goods like paper currency or similar is they are not in any shape or form tied to my identity. That's a feature.

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#53
> “Nothing you buy will be anonymous,” he said, adding a positive outcome would be that it is harder for criminals to evade detection or anti-money laundering controls

But centrally issued digital cash can be anonymous. There exist cryptographic schemes where tokens can be exchanged peer-to-peer in a way where the issuing bank can't identify participants until tokens are double spent. Double spends can then be charged against the account of the double spender when the recipient of a transaction deposits the tokens. These schemes are far more efficient, natural progression to our current fiat monetary system than Bitcoin or any of the other "crypto currencies".

The only reason we don't have this tech today is there are no incentives for our governments or banks to maintain the anonymity of cash.

https://archive.org/details/CryptographyOfAnonymousElectroni...

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#54
post #15

As a Swedish person I don't see the point at all: Why would I want to use this? I would rather have a decentralized system of various banks and global companies (Mastercard, Visa, etc) track my transactions and spread out that risk, instead of one single state actor. I could also use, you know, cash. Digital cash is first and foremost an instrument for new ways to do monetary policy, as more countries (like Sweden an…

What does "heading towards a Japanese situation" mean?

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#55

bitcoin solves nothing, worse it empower the "wanting to become millionaire overnight" syndrome that plagues our society this world is horrible when you look into the details, working and helping other people is not rewarded at all profiting from other people is what best people can do to have a better time on this planet

The market economy in fact solves many problems of 'helping other people' that we have just become so used to that we don't appreciate its complexity. The fact that food is produced in abundance and is distributed in time to population centres for convenient consumption is a marvel of the modern world. And we're only getting better at it over time. That's helping people.

"That's helping people" doesn't really say anything. It's extremely vague. Moreover, it's clear that not everyone helped since abject poverty and hunger are a thing, regardless of where you live.

You might be conflating "helping people" with "convenience" whereas what you truly want to say that "market economy" has made products/services "affordable". But, that's, again, not an inclusive statement. Markets only offer access to goods/services to the extent that actors are able to afford them. And clearly not everyone can afford to buy enough sustenance on a daily basis to not go hungry.

The same is true for being able to afford to attain equitable prices as a seller. If you can't bring enough leverage to the table, you will have to accept price levels as they are determined by bigger players who dominate market supply. It might mean that you get out priced, and that your business proposition - no matter how good the idea was - simply won't generate revenue because someone else can provide the same thing for less then peanuts.

Both cryptocurrency and food are the epitomes of that.

Massive amounts of food are being produced to the extent that there's massive amounts of waste across the entire supply chain. None of that happens out of charitable or altruistic intentions. It's not even produced for your personal convenience as a customer.

Flooding markets with massive amounts of supply is a strategy aimed to drive the prices down to a point where competitors have to call it quits. The aim/risk is to generate a razor thin margin which is still worth the investment. At the scale of global markets, that's still billions of dollars worth in profits.

The same is true for cryptocurrency. The price on cryptomarkets isn't determined by the many hands who hold fractions, it's determined by those who have invested the largest amounts of leverage. And they will use that to influence the prices if the incentive for scalping profit and/or acquiring/controlling a larger share of a scarce/finite resource becomes too enticing.

"Market economy" only helps certain groups in certain circumstances. It's definitely not an equitable way of "helping people". On the contrary.

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#56
post #36
post #15

As a Swedish person I don't see the point at all: Why would I want to use this? I would rather have a decentralized system of various banks and global companies (Mastercard, Visa, etc) track my transactions and spread out that risk, instead of one single state actor. I could also use, you know, cash. Digital cash is first and foremost an instrument for new ways to do monetary policy, as more countries (like Sweden an…

For this reason it’s important we start using cash again, and not attend shops and restaurants that don’t take it. Nowadays we have brutal armed robberies like never before, but using non-traceable currency is important for freedom.

Plenty of small businesses in London are still cash only. My local hairdresser for example.

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#57
post #56
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this reason it’s important we start using cash again, and not attend shops and restaurants that don’t take it. Nowadays we have brutal armed robberies like never before, but using non-traceable currency is important for freedom.

Plenty of small businesses in London are still cash only. My local hairdresser for example.

Cherish it!

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#58
I have been studying Real-Time Gross Settlement systems for the past two months, including questions of liquidity in settlement systems. The question at the heart of the banking system is quite simple, if banks take capital from customers and use it to provide debt to others, then how much money should they keep on hand for their customers' withdrawals and transfers?

This question is hard to answer. As there is a conflict between what the bank does (i.e. provide debt), and how it is supposed to provide it (by taking savings etc.). Everything else, from central banks "offering cheap liquidity" is an add on. They are mechanisms that allow - for example, a bank to easily borrow this money so that they can cancel it out/repay it from transactions coming into their banks.

What makes it all borked is that you can't trust bankers with their grandmas. If there is a flaw, they will exploit it. Every major change has led to an exploit. E.g. In 1918, the American Government introduced the Leased Wire System that used the telegraphs and a network of 12 Reserves to allow banks to transct with each other across CONUS. It reduced the average time for cheques to be cashed in at banks across the country from 5.4 days in 1912 to just 2.4 days. Theoretically, this reduced the risk taken by banks when they transacted with unknown banks across the country, with the Government acting as the escrow. It catalysed innovation and led to an explosion of financial services across the young country.

The system was supposed to be foolproof by reducing the time "credit" was needed to make transactions. Essentially, until one bank sent the money and the other got it, they were operating on a system of credit. And they would "net" the books at the end of the day/week to physically transfer assets. FedWire (Leased Wire System) made everyone feel safe by sending notes of the transactions across great distances. But the netting still took time. All it took was one bank to fall behind on current obligations to other banks for all of the banks to collapse, leading to the Great Depression.

Important people got together and made rule changes to fix the problem. But then they innovated again. The Federal Reserve started making Automatic Clearing Houses (ACHs) and Remote Check Processing Centres (RCPCs) to make settlement faster, starting in the 60s and precipitating in 1972. This made settlement faster therefore safer. And it led to great financial innovation. The magic of computers and innovation meant that people could use these same systems to transact across the world!

Until in 1974, when the German lender Herstatt collapsed due foreign exchange investments based in the Dollar, which caused the bank to fail to meet its settlement obligations...

> That day, a number of banks had released payment of Deutsche Marks (DEM) to Herstatt in Frankfurt in exchange for US dollars (USD) that were to be delivered in New York. The bank was closed at 16:30 German time, which was 10:30 New York time. Because of time zone differences, Herstatt ceased operations between the times of the respective payments. The counterparty banks did not receive their USD payments

This is a simplified history. But the history of banking is the history of doing settlement while managing liquidity and counter-party risk.

No one can predict how this will turn out. But we shouldn't cheer the government cutting out the middleman and going into the business of settlement and direct debt themselves. The Great Collapse of 2034 might be precipitated by it.

https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/blog/2020/09/check-processing-...

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke201...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_risk

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#59
post #15

As a Swedish person I don't see the point at all: Why would I want to use this? I would rather have a decentralized system of various banks and global companies (Mastercard, Visa, etc) track my transactions and spread out that risk, instead of one single state actor. I could also use, you know, cash. Digital cash is first and foremost an instrument for new ways to do monetary policy, as more countries (like Sweden an…

What does "heading towards a Japanese situation" mean?

<2 children per woman I would guess, I.e. a lot of old people but few young. Or maybe they mean the high government debt but low real stock market growth?

Re: Swedish bankers face identity crisis over digital currency plans

#60
post #52
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spread what risk? They are already making money of you. The risk they take is really small compared to what kind of money they are making...

Keyword: track. As in the privacy concern of the government having direct insight into all your financial transactions. Sure, they already have the opportunity to demand that information from Swedish commercial banks and other financial institutions, but it's not as convenient as the direct control they have with a centrally managed digital currency. The really nice thing with fungible physical goods like paper curre…

I agree with you that cash is the best choice given that privacy is the main concern, even better than bitcoin or any other crypto with a visible blockchain. Banks already tie the money you spend to your identity. I would like to own digital currency, like i own the cash in my wallet. Banks would not like that, since when they would like to own it and lend it to me.
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