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SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

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Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was purging leftover hypergolic fuel, which is used to ignite the engines. Or, maybe the engine sensed the engine was abnormal (because of low fuel), so it tried to re-ignite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triethylborane

TEA-TEB is not used on Starship. What you saw was an oxygen rich burn due to the low pressures in the header tank, the engine was eating itself and burning copper in the process. Copper burns green.

> TEA-TEB is not used on Starship

This is correct. The Raptor uses an electric spark igniter.

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#52
post #2

HN: "SpaceX Launches and Nearly Lands Starship on Its First Suborbital Flight" vs Article: "SpaceX Launches—and Crashes—Its Starship Mars Rocket"

If you want to see an even worse headline along with flat-out incorrect information in the article, try this bit of journalism. https://www.the-sun.com/news/1944062/space-x-mars-starship-e...

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#53

Swing and a miss.. but not by much! Congrats to the SpaceX team on the amazing and fast progress. What an incredible step forward.

It says something about what they have done for rocketry when crashes on landing are note worthy. No one else even tries what they do normally without issue.

> It says something about what they have done for rocketry when crashes on landing are note worthy.

Err...???

Crashes of rockets always seem to be noteworthy. That's not anything specific to SpaceX.

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#54
I make efforts to add to discussions instead of subtracting with negativity. Recently, I've broken my rule quite a few times, fretting over the future of general compute. I'd vowed to not break it again, but the discussion about Starship lacks a vital perspective.

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I don't understand the hype behind Starship. It's confusing to me. It is touching and nice; it's great to see people excited about space. However, the expectations and projections seem misaligned with reality. It seems that people are assuming that this is the vehicle itself, or at least an earlier version of it. That is likely to not be the case. This isn't anywhere close to the finished vehicle and several key technological problems remain. Yet, they've explicitly shaped it like the final version, and hyped it.

In certain ways, SpaceX seems to be leaning into the hype, leading to a gross mismatch between expectations and reality. For example, the current headline is inaccurate as the flight cannot be categorized as sub-orbital. The vehicle did not cross the Kármán line. These issues will detract from the meat of what has been achieved today.

SpaceX has achieved many milestones including demonstrating groundbreaking GNC (Guidance, Navigation and Control) capability today. Today's most impressive achievement is a high performant, stable Liquid-Methane engine. Prior investigations and projects found notable instability during ignition as well as low frequency instability. Another historical issue has been the need for a high pre-burner chamber pressure for a LCH4 engine.

These issues were mapped out via prior research. For e.g., in 2014, there was a NASA project that shares some heritage with Raptor, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Morpheus

> During the rest of March 2014 the ALHAT hardware was inserted again permitting a successful tethered test of the assembly on March 27, 2014. Tether Test 34 flight trajectory was similar to TT33 and TT29 with two hovers and a 3 m (9.8 ft) translation during a 3.25 m (10.7 ft) ascent.[97] Free Flight 10 (FF10) took place on April 2, 2014 with the ALHAT in open loop mode. The ALHAT imaged the Hazard Field and calculating navigation solutions in real time. Morpheus ascended to a maximum altitude of about 804 feet (245 m), then flew forward and downward initially at a 30-degree glideslope, then levelling out, covering a total of about 1334 feet (406.5 m) horizontally in 50 seconds while diverting to a landing site location 78 feet (23.8 m) from its initial target, before descending and landing on a dedicated landing pad at the front (south) of the ALHAT Hazard Field. The total flight time was ~96 sec, the longest flight to date.[98] Free Flight 11 on April 24, 2014 was a repeat of Free Flight 10 with some changes to the ALHAT.[99] April 30, 2014 Free Flight 12 was a repeat of FF10 but with the ALHAT choosing the landing location.[100]

The engine was designed for moon operation, and demonstrated dynamic hazard avoidance and translation to a previously unknown "safe" landing area. The technology has found its way to the Nova-C lander which is slated for 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova-C

NASA also has some fairly detailed technical reports on the subjects from earlier experimentation,

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20100034924

and a comparative analysis of LCH4 and RP-1 for reusable boosters,

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Holger_Burkhardt/public...

The key impressive element over here is a reusable, throttleable, stable LCH4/LOX engine that seems to be capable of reignition (at least in the atmosphere). This is a significant achievement and one that SpaceX should be lauded for. However, an engine does not a starship make.

A proper comparison would be the Space Transportation System, or the Shuttle. As Starship has Raptor, the Shuttle had the RS-25, a high efficiency, highly manoeuvrable and performant marvel of engineering. It is perhaps the only engine that could be re-used over a dozen times. A claim unmatched until the development of the past few blocks of Merlin engines. The STS also had superior GNC, for its time, and could autonomously land in flying brick mode all the way from orbit.

However, that wasn't enough. The real issue turned out to be the thermal protection system, operational temperature ranges and the cost of refurbishing these machines.

The STS may look like a bad bet right now, but if you were sitting in the 1970s, watching the RS-25 perform, seeing the GNC work, and watching NASA nail the first test flight with two humans on top in a single go, it would have seemed like the future.

However, much of what makes rocket science hard is in the details. And those details simply haven't been filled in yet for Starship. These hops are excellent tests, but once again, an engine and GNC do not a starship make.

In light of this, I am unable to understand the excitement for this vehicle. Several people assume that they're close to sending an orbital vehicle. Perhaps, but it wouldn't be reusable. And it would be quite mass inefficient for a one-way trip due to the construction techniques used.

Starship isn't anywhere close to the primetime. It's at least half-a-decade to a decade away from initial reusable testflights, and perhaps more given the under funding of the Artemis program. It is worth remembering that early on in SpaceX's history, Musk made a dummy rocket and took it to DC to convince politicians to help allocate COTS & CRS funding to SpaceX. His gambit succeeded. My personal perception and worry is that SpaceX is repeating the tactic at scale, creating a sense that they're further along than they are. This perception is mixed with a more dangerous one that the Starship is in a league of its own. It's not. Blue Origin's work and approach may be superior in the long run, as they're designing mission specific vehicles that are optimised to their context.

It is hard to convey to the public what realistic milestones look like in rocketry, but for context Raptor has been in development since 2009. The LCH4/LOX variant since 2012. It has taken nearly a decade to near the (limited) flight readiness stage. It is likely that the other components will take longer. I am worried that this early excitement will sour as the program takes longer than anticipated. The space program is highly dependent on public funding, there would be serious repercussions if public perception sours. I am worried about a rocketry winter.

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Edit. Re: Artemis & NASA

The Artemis program and other contracts now fund the bulk of Starship development. More broadly, NASA has poured billions into SpaceX and they're SpaceX's largest "investor" by far, except NASA doesn't take equity and treats it as "pre-funding" an eventual contract (which would also pay per launch).

Starship is (likely) to be mostly (up to 60% to 70% or so) NASA funded.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-names-companies-to-d...

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1316417597257129985

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1316421539521327109

Re: early SpaceX history and the dummy rocket.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=903

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#55
post #12
post #3

I remember watching the Tesla going into space and the rockets landing on the platform. I remember thinking "Wow this man has restarted the space race for my generation." It was a hopeful and wonderful feeling, I figured with the budget cuts, the politics, and the general "been there done that" attitude that was prominent for much of my life space was closed. To see it opened again, gives me some sort of hope, some i…

As a young person (21), I feel the same way. Space exploration and a beautiful future suddenly seems achievable with hard work and a lot of engineering instead of just feeling impossible.

> As a young person (21), I feel the same way. Space exploration and a beautiful future suddenly seems achievable with hard work and a lot of engineering instead of just feeling impossible.

That is the goal for me, I'm not going to Mars and I knew that as soon as I went to the MDRS. I also made it an effort to make the director (commander on several mission) to realize how important it is motivate the younger generation and not just the future astronauts that come aborad for analogue missions.

SpaceX doesn't pay much, and you have to make a ton of sacrifices to even be considered, but I can tell you that being there you get this 'I wouldn't be any where else' feeling that I think is far superior to any monetary value.

Unfortunately, many of this year's missions at the MDRS are postponed due to COVID, but the robot challenge (mainly comprised of college aged students) is the one I really felt felt disappointed about. I was going to try and make it out this year to help out with that.

I hope you decide to get involved in this space (pun intended); I know if I was in my 20s, I'd do it all over again.

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says something about what they have done for rocketry when crashes on landing are note worthy. No one else even tries what they do normally without issue.

> It says something about what they have done for rocketry when crashes on landing are note worthy. Err...??? Crashes of rockets always seem to be noteworthy. That's not anything specific to SpaceX.

Shivetya is talking about landing rockets afterwards.

If they keep up the launch cadence next year, they will surpass the Shuttle in number of reuses in a space program.

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#57
post #49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also "you can only ever tie the altitude record for lowest flight."

That one's not actually true though, e.g. the lowest-altitude formation-flight record currently stands at -422m (over the dead sea).

Has anyone ever tried to top that?

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who don't want to click the tweet: > Fuel header tank pressure was low during landing burn, causing touchdown velocity to be high & RUD, but we got all the data we needed! Congrats SpaceX team hell yeah!!

> RUD “Rapid Unplanned Disassembly”? I love reading Musk’s tweets :)

”Unscheduled”, I think

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#59

I make efforts to add to discussions instead of subtracting with negativity. Recently, I've broken my rule quite a few times, fretting over the future of general compute. I'd vowed to not break it again, but the discussion about Starship lacks a vital perspective. . I don't understand the hype behind Starship. It's confusing to me. It is touching and nice; it's great to see people excited about space. However, the ex…

I'm a SpaceX fan, and I hear your arguments so let me give one aspect of the other side:

I think you and I are in a bet about whether progress for Starship is going to be roughly linear or exponential. Obviously I'm betting emotionally on the latter. Granted I could go on and on about the facts that I think back up my assessment, but in the end I think you and I both know it really comes down to hunches, doesn't it?

My hunch is that your argument is the equivalent of Steve Ballmer's famous •shrug* about the iPhone. But I could be wrong, of course.

Re: SpaceX launches and nearly lands starship on its first suborbital flight

#60
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a young person (21), I feel the same way. Space exploration and a beautiful future suddenly seems achievable with hard work and a lot of engineering instead of just feeling impossible.

> As a young person (21), I feel the same way. Space exploration and a beautiful future suddenly seems achievable with hard work and a lot of engineering instead of just feeling impossible. That is the goal for me, I'm not going to Mars and I knew that as soon as I went to the MDRS. I also made it an effort to make the director (commander on several mission) to realize how important it is motivate the younger generat…

Getting involved is a dream of mine, but it's been quite difficult for me to get my foot in the door, so to speak.
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