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Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

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Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#51
post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

When was the last time a marginalized group gained rights by asking politely?

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#52
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numerator is such a small percentage because so many fear losing their jobs for speaking out. In that context, this number is quite significant. Even if you disagree with their stance, you have to admit that it takes courage to speak up in these kinds of situations.

Given the number of people I know who privately think that she resigned rather than got fired and similarly won't speak out (there's tons of internal threads talking about her being fired from what I can tell here), I think it actually is a small percentage.

> "think that she resigned rather than got fired"

Thats objectively one way or the other - it's not a matter of opinion.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#53
Contrarian view. Some of these points can individually be refuted. As an outsider, here’s what it looks like:

- you have an employee who (in her letter) hired attorneys to sue you. - you have an employee who was given an award for impact who openly mocks it and thinks it’s a joke, which detracts from culture - you have an employee who went on a Twitter tirade and send several pages of information teaching a leading person in your space how to apologize. Humiliating. - you have a paper of questionable quality that maybe needs more review and maybe doesn’t but at a minimum appears to be BERT related which could impact your business. It’s not unreasonable to want to look at it. - you have an employee whose tone is very aggressive. It seems reasonable you’d be apprehensive of working with her. It doesn’t seem googles point is to make a model that is biased towards any group, etc, so you should be on the same team? - you get a volley email which requires information (give me all the conversations you had) which could be used to publicly shame the head of a business unit (Jeff Dean) - the employee emails, says she’s going on vacation, and then expects you to be waiting for her when you get back

I don’t know. It’s probably mixed. But it seems she’s well respected and given significant leeway. If we strip race and sex from this (if you can do that, perhaps it ruins it, but this is why this is a throwaway): this seems like a very high drama employee. Let’s say there was no hidden bogey man and we take Jeff at his word: more time was needed to give comments on the paper. From there, a) either paper is fine and she submits. Obviously the initial publication space for which she missed the internal review deadline is out, or B) if the paper is not fine and Google makes reasonable points to improve the quality, you incorporate them, then it’s published, or C) if the paper is not fine, but Google is making bogus claims to surpress you because of (in this thought experiment) some racial bias or business model conflict, then you can escalate internally or leave or fight in the media.

The problem is you didn’t let a)/b)/c) play out. By jamming the list serve as a way to influence and over ride the internal system the employee is trying to circumvent the operation practice of the group and it undermines leadership. Note, I’m not claiming she is incorrect in her work being suppressed potentially. I’m just claiming if I was her manager my inner voice mental response would be: “shut the fuck up and stop being such a shit disturber. I was willing to work this out with you, even though you could have followed the normal process everyone else does, but now you created a company internal hurfuffle so I need to loop in MY manager (Jeff) and the last time you interacted with public exposure with someone of that high stature (the Twitter incident) you caused a highly abraisive outcome. Ugh. What do I do? Oh you resigned unless you publicly humiliate my boss? Yeah okay, let’s just accept that, I’m not being paid enough to baby sit you. I’m at Google brain to do ai research, not manage temper tantrums. Ok, so will talk to Jeff, tell the team you resigned to help you save face (which she spun btw, lol) and oh yeah we should probably shut off your devices to avoid more damage. This sucks. Ugh I wish that list serve and email to Jeff didn’t go out. “

That’s a jaded view. You can be potentially (or not) repressed and simultaneously an asshole. Would any of you want to work with someone like her? Who low key threatens your job or attempts to publicly humiliate you if she doesn’t get what she wants?

Note, using a throw away because it’s too scary to post this publicly. Because I can’t judge what the “public consensus” is (and it seems to be changing), I can’t tell if the above is a 1/10 and like lunatic level, or 4/10 and highly offensive, or maybe a 6/10 and just highly insidious (by design). The bigger point is this incident shows how Twitter flames and self censor ship can perhaps make certain topics hard to discuss.

Sorry if this was offensive. But the “HR policy drone” view seems otherwise underrepresented.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#54
post #2

Companies can't straddle the line. They're either going to have to go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics, or they're going to have to clamp down hard like Brian Armstrong. Google needs to decide what it wants to be. Given its choices, I think it's clear what they want. They just need to say it. It'll help employees and potential employees know if they want to work there.

If my company decides to "go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics", could there ever be any legitimate reason to fire an employee who's also "all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics"?

That's the entire reason behind it, if they fire a "diversity and inclusion" individual, the latter will just claim (racism, homophobia, transphobia, latest fad of the day)

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#55
post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

If she was truly removed for her abrasiveness, we would have a completely separate discussion entirely. What transpired, from both her disclosures and Google's leaderships response, has justifiably reigned in a lot of concern and skeptism from the broader research community.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#56
post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

Would anyone mind citing an instance of this toxic Twitter behavior? I don't dispute that individual tweets can be enough to wreck your career in certain circumstances but it's a high bar and haven't noticed any links to twitter.com supporting these accusations.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#57
post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

> divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

Reading the HN comments section sometimes feels akin to doing archival research on letters to the editor during the peak of the civil rights movement.

It's astonishing how consistent the tropes are.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#58

I'm tired of FAANG "rallies" where the numerator is such a small percentage of the denominator. I bet one could get "hundreds" of Google employees to rally behind a flat earth and many more for the abolition of mayonnaise.

This is not a valid argument. A company's actions don't have to result in a riot to be worthy of criticism. One meaningful complaint can be enough.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my company decides to "go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics", could there ever be any legitimate reason to fire an employee who's also "all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics"?

When they try to illegally hire/not-hire people based on protected class, which if I read correctly is something she was pushing for. Forgive me if this is mischaracterized. I don't want to work anywhere that pushes any ideology so far that they break the law. That goes for if it's in pushing their bottom line as well, so regulatory gray-area companies like Uber & AirBnB are also a no-go for me.

It is hard to find a reputable tech firm or startup that has not been publicly or internally accused of breaking a rule, regulation or law. It's engrained in the ideology of innovation.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

When was the last time a marginalized group gained rights by asking politely?

Even when we do the response is quite often some form of "not like that" or the goalposts get moved back another 40 yards from the back of the endzone.
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