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“I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

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Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#51
post #26

I'm very sympathetic to the idea that a more objective test like interview format eliminates bias from the interviewer, as well as the idea it allows introverts or those not as well versed in storytelling to be successful opposed to traditional 'sell yourself' interviews. However, it's a huge waste of time when so many of the questions are the same. I get it, every company wants to know if I can turn a list into a ba…

This seems like a pretty good idea on the surface. I'm curious how the SAT and ACT standardized testing in the US came into the position of almost de-facto standardized college entrance exam. On the other hand, I've wondered why a similar thing doesn't exist in the real estate industry for home inspections. A good inspection costs a lot of money, and it seems basically every serious buyer needs to pay for it themselves. Why doesn't the seller pay for one up front and share the results with interested buyers? Certainly there's room for corruption / cheating, so maybe that's why? The same concerns would apply for a standardized whiteboarding. Not to mention that some kind of interview would have to happen anyway just as a context for getting to know a candidate. Personally, I think it's actually good that this happens in a technical context and, as others have said, is not completely based on a verbal conversation.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#52

I've always preferred to give very serious candidates some technical homework. Make an API that does this particular thing. You have two days. Then we look at what they built and talk about it. It's way more realistic because that's how we actually work-- nobody is coding algorithms on a whiteboard. To any extent, it has worked very well. The people that have done great ended up being great employees and the people t…

The problem with take-homes is that they take a huge commitment from the candidate and almost none from the company.

So you end-up with huge assignments and a poor reputation among the folks you are trying to hire.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#53
I was just griping about this earlier today. I'm in the interview process with a company, who has talked to me before, after being referred internally to do so. I've talked to them about technical problems I've solved in the past, discussed problem solving and approaches to optimization and architecture. Interview process has gone really well.

They said the last thing is a code test, that they do through Hackerrank. I figured ok, I'll go through some on Hackerrank and get the hang of them, since I've never really done much on these types of things. I did bomb out of an interview process last year that was strikingly similar, with a final step of random algorithmic code test that was timed/monitored and I struggled on.

I spent 2 hours working on Hackerrank stuff just to realize:

1. It's virtually all either 1+1 intro or comp sci stuff. There's nothing there remotely applicable to any work I've done in my career, which has included numerous positions of architecture/scalability/emergency fixing.

2. A lot of the problems are very poorly described. After an hour of failing to solve one, with no feedback on what strange inputs were failing (because the ones it would tell me all passed), I finally clicked the editorial part. And it began with "here's the obvious solution, but that won't work because it's O(n^3). Well no sh*t, I'm aware, but this is a stupid brute force exercise and there was no notice of "be efficient, must solve using linear algebra."

In the past, a couple places have done a code test that is basically "sit down with Jim for an hour, he's working on XYZ problem, and see how you would approach it." Those have been the absolute best code tests, both for me to show talent and for companies to judge me.

Anyways, time to go bomb out of another candidacy at the last stage.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#54

Unless you've made it to your "endgame" company that you're happy to stay at for a while, I feel investing anything more than the bare minimum to get your assigned work done is worth less than just grinding leetcode and otherwise studying for interviews. Doing an actual good job, above and beyond, is not going to be worth much when you're looking for your next job. Thus we're now seeing the rise of Professional Inter…

This is inconsistent with my experience in my most recent round of interviews.

I interviewed at a few places at a senior/staff level, and most of my interviews were behavioral, architectural, or discussions about past work. The few leetcode-style or coding questions I had were easily prepared for from my ~40 hours of interview-specific coding prep.

There is zero chance I would have gotten those interviews or passed them without excelling at my job. My resume would have looked terrible if I didn't go above and beyond at my last role, and I would have given weak answers to some of the questions I was asked if I didn't have real experience with the subject matter or a relevant situation.

I think I understand why you have the perspective you have. Indeed, many modern software interviews can feel far removed from the actual job, and we all know that even well-executed interviews sometimes result in decisions barely better than a coin flip. However, unless you really enjoy leetcode, I can't think of anything more depressing than studying for interviews all day. Also, it is hard to prepare for interviews at higher levels (senior/staff) without actual experience produced by doing a good job.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#55

Unless you've made it to your "endgame" company that you're happy to stay at for a while, I feel investing anything more than the bare minimum to get your assigned work done is worth less than just grinding leetcode and otherwise studying for interviews. Doing an actual good job, above and beyond, is not going to be worth much when you're looking for your next job. Thus we're now seeing the rise of Professional Inter…

Our industry feels like it's in the decline of the Roman Empire right now.

Our craft is becoming arcane: Microsoft is building VSCode for the cloud. Few people own desktop computers anymore. Apple is locking down MacOS to signed binaries. Soon we'll all have thin clients and will write software in the cloud for the cloud. Few will be able to learn how to engineer at home anymore - you'll have to go to a university or trade school. Building a simple website will require JS package management, kubernetes, and AWS. The "free tier" will fall away.

Employees aren't excited by what they do: People job hop for promos, raises, and resume fodder, not because there's an actual interest in the product. The majority of software projects are mundane glue, pipes, optimization tweaks, or migrations.

Companies don't care about employees: Wages are adjusted for cost of living. Companies are trying to hire more outside of California in order to lower wages across the board. Employees at "passion project" companies (gaming, SpaceX, Tesla) are overworked and underpaid.

Incentives are wrong: Google bestows promos on launches, not KTLO. Google kills products that make customers and engineers happy and doesn't spend enough effort to make them better.

The industry is eating the commons: The web is turning into shit. Devices are being locked down. Ads and tracking are everywhere. Open source is being co-opted, but the benefits are not returned. The cool things to hack on and integrate with (remember "mashups"?) are all siloed up, full of ads, and dumbed down to the most basic products.

The Internet now treats everyone using it like we're all brainless idiots to be injected with dopamine. Like we're not smart enough to choose how to consume it. And working for companies in this field now feels like working for the insurance industry. Optimize for the average.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#56
post #8

A rather tired conversation in my opinion. Everybody likes to complain about interviews, but every single alternative I've heard is even worse: Take-homes are biased toward those willing to work hours for free, a "track record" is biased toward those who inflate their resume, a casual conversation is biased toward the likable and native english speakers, high-level whiteboarding is biased towards people who are good…

What if there were a certification authority that could claim that professionals are, indeed, competent in X, Y, Z within software? And, of course, that authority would need to be recognized by A, B, C companies. That'd certainly skip the endless, often mind-numbing, repetitiveness of technical interviews (especially for those with many years of experience) and can jump straight to culture/team/behavior fit. This is…

I have several certifications from Microsoft and Google and, for the most part, mean jack to an interviewer. I am still forced to leetcode and answer mind-numbing questions.

On a side note, of all the choices I prefer a take-home, as long as it is timeboxed to no more than 1-2 hours.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#57
The author has been working as a developer for 15 years, and claims very strong technical skills. Why are they learning/re-learning Python, C++, SQL, C#, college math? Nobody will be fooled by that; at 15 YoE they will be evaluated on what they have done over a career, not over the last month.

> it's all about how much time you can spend on Leetcode.

The author is playing a game built for new grads. Here's a secret, speaking as an (ex) Facebook interviewer:

Facebook's hiring pipeline is optimized for new grads, but its hiring needs are senior engineers. They know this, but you can't build a high-volume interview pipeline for senior engineers: there's not enough of them, their skill set is too varied. So Facebook is kind of at a loss, but in general if you have 15 YoE and can show you're good, they want to hire you. In particular they'll try to find deep domain experts ("pirates", their term) to evaluate you.

So be prepared to demonstrate basic competence in coding, and also some deep expertise. T-shaped engineers, as they say.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#58
post #29

I'm in the job market and I've hit a lot of these Hackerrank style tests. They're easy. They (the people writing and administrating) the tests bend over backwards to offer the same test in many different languages. They provide unit tests and examples. To be quite blunt: These tests just verify very basic programming skills. They're meant to filter out people who just can't code. Someone who's struggling with these k…

I'm assuming you have never needed to practice these problems as you already have basic programming skills and are thus able to do every Leetcode Hard within 30 minutes of first seeing the problem?

I typically do assignments from prospective employers in half the alotted time.

I don't waste my time trying to build a leetcode / hackerank profile. Edit: Compative coding has very little to do with industrial strength software development.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#59
post #28

Unless you've made it to your "endgame" company that you're happy to stay at for a while, I feel investing anything more than the bare minimum to get your assigned work done is worth less than just grinding leetcode and otherwise studying for interviews. Doing an actual good job, above and beyond, is not going to be worth much when you're looking for your next job. Thus we're now seeing the rise of Professional Inter…

Yeah, I burned myself out really bad trying to go above and beyond for a few years at various companies. Just ended up frustrated, making no more money than people coasting in the same position, and still got laid off during downsizing instead of the people who spent time playing office politics and going out to happy hour with the supervisor. I feel kind of guilty now though, because I actually managed to get hired…

Working hard for a raise/promotion is a losing strategy. Working hard so you can change jobs every 18-24 months with big salary jumps is rather easy to do consistently.

Trying to get a promotion is deciding to compete for one position in one company with essentially every qualified candidate in the world. It’s easy to see how looking for a better job every so often has better odds for success.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#60
post #8

A rather tired conversation in my opinion. Everybody likes to complain about interviews, but every single alternative I've heard is even worse: Take-homes are biased toward those willing to work hours for free, a "track record" is biased toward those who inflate their resume, a casual conversation is biased toward the likable and native english speakers, high-level whiteboarding is biased towards people who are good…

What if there were a certification authority that could claim that professionals are, indeed, competent in X, Y, Z within software? And, of course, that authority would need to be recognized by A, B, C companies. That'd certainly skip the endless, often mind-numbing, repetitiveness of technical interviews (especially for those with many years of experience) and can jump straight to culture/team/behavior fit. This is…

What's gonna happen when a company opens position and will get 100 applications from people with certificate in X,Y,Z?
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