Johns Hopkins: Heart Disease Deaths Dropped in 2020 [pdf]

Post by Pyramus » Wed, Dec 02, 2020, 8:32 AM UTC

owenversteeg wrote: post #49

Pyramus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study you cited doesn't really support your point - it basically says the 260k deaths would have been preventable with basic universal healthcare in place: > "In countries with UHC—defined in the study as [...]—the link between unemployment and excess cancer deaths disappeared, suggesting that greater access to health care played a key role in mitigating the problem." If you are really interested in the effect of…

Sure it does, as I'm pretty sure the US does not have universal health care right now :) Also, while many countries have (on paper) universal health care, in reality you will need to go into the private system for quality care. I am definitely a fan of universal healthcare, and it works well in many rich countries, but this is a global pandemic, not just something affecting Europe and America. > This is pretty vague,…

I thought your point was that financial downturn leads to diminished public health, which it doesn't (only if you deny people healthcare).

I'm not sure masks are a good example for 'groupthink'. The messaging was inconsistent not because 'all scientists were thinking alike' but because there was a lack of evidence around cotton-based 'community' masks and even medical masks of type II.

Sorry I'm pressing you on this. I agree groupthink does exist and is bad, however in the true sciences it's very rare. So would be interested to get an example related to Covid.

> For one example, I am shocked that the countries that are incredible coronavirus "success stories" such as Vietnam only occasionally appear in the news. They just went three entire months with zero locally transmitted cases - what can we learn from them?

Fully agree with you here. Every country seems to be in their own bubble and rarely look abroad in a deeper manner.

Post by owenversteeg » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #51

owenversteeg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does, as I'm pretty sure the US does not have universal health care right now :) Also, while many countries have (on paper) universal health care, in reality you will need to go into the private system for quality care. I am definitely a fan of universal healthcare, and it works well in many rich countries, but this is a global pandemic, not just something affecting Europe and America. > This is pretty vague,…

I thought your point was that financial downturn leads to diminished public health, which it doesn't (only if you deny people healthcare). I'm not sure masks are a good example for 'groupthink'. The messaging was inconsistent not because 'all scientists were thinking alike' but because there was a lack of evidence around cotton-based 'community' masks and even medical masks of type II. Sorry I'm pressing you on this.…

But I'm not talking about some imaginary hypothetical world, I'm talking about the world we live in, where the US healthcare system is what it is. Furthermore, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that financial difficulties can lead to physical health issues, no matter where you live. I live in the Netherlands, a strong social democracy where college is close to free (~$170/month), a healthcare system the American left can only dream of, etc etc. Despite this, my friends and I have been asked about our financial situation by doctors, because that plays a role in your health even here. Not just the huge effects of stress, but also what you eat, how much free time you have, possible risks from your job etc. are all determined by your financial situation.

I think masks are a fine example - even far after there seemed to be evidence for their efficacy, many governments said they were not necessary based on advice from local scientists, and as late as September, you would see as few as 1 in 50 people wearing a mask in much of Western Europe.

> I agree groupthink does exist and is bad, however in the true sciences it's very rare.

Hmm. Most scientists I know are convinced groupthink is a problem in the sciences. One excellent example is particle physics and supersymmetry, which was basically treated as a religion. Some of the brightest minds of the 21st century were behind a theory that wasn't even falsifiable! The hunt to prove supersymmetry has, at this point, easily cost into the multiple _billions_ of dollars. Now, I don't consider it a total waste, but it certainly is a good example of groupthink. There are countless examples out there, but suffice to say scientists are just as human as the rest of us, and prone to groupthink like anyone else.

Re: Johns Hopkins: Heart Disease Deaths Dropped in 2020 [pdf]

Re: Johns Hopkins: Heart Disease Deaths Dropped in 2020 [pdf]