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This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

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Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#51

Post by yuhong »

olavk wrote: post #33
haberman wrote: post #13

The W3C is broken: it has spent the last 10 years standardizing ideas instead of existing practice . This is totally backwards and leads to standards that are too complicated, unrealistic, and in many cases not needed at all. The W3C was originally created to standardize HTML, which was already being used by many vendors and users but in incompatible ways. That is exactly the right situation for creating a standard.…

I agree with you in general, but not in the case of CSS. The CSS layout model were indeed based on exactly the layout properties of "presentational HTML" which people were using for style and layout at that time. It was just made more fine grained, and separated from the markup. For example, the much hated "float/clear" layout model were based on the align="left|right" and clear="left|right" attributes which Netscape…

FYI, the reason why is that IE4 was released before CSS2 became a recommendation, and in fact implemented CSS1 (with bugs, but that is partly because it needs to be compatible with IE3) plus CSS-P: http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-positioning-19970819

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#52

Post by halo »

haberman wrote: post #28
jerf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"CSS could have used a table-like layout model that makes it easy to arrange s into rows and columns, allowing a smooth upgrade from people who were using the tag." Like this? http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/tables.html

A lot like that, yes, but that was not introduced until CSS2 which is so big and complex that they've spent almost 15 years correcting it (CSS 2.1 keeps bouncing back and forth between "Working Draft" and "Candidate Recommendation"). Despite being first defined in CSS2 (1998) CSS tables were not supported in IE for 10 years (IE8, 2009), and while some of the blame for this is surely Microsoft's, with a standard as bi…

CSS1 was deliberately designed to be 'simple' which is why they avoided the problem of layout entirely. Appendix E of the specification even says so (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#appendix-e).

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#53

Post by alanh »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #50
alanh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever heard of HTML5? It is fundamentally a codification & standardization of existing practice ( , parsing, short encoding meta tags) — and when it isn’t doing that, it addresses actual needs (like how to handle video and audio).

Are you seriously asking someone on HN if they've ever heard of HTML5?

Rhetorical, and if I could still edit to take the tone a step towards neutral, I would. But parent is an out-of-place and out-of-date criticism of w3c in my opinion. At minimum, they should explain why HTML5 is not a counter-example of their claim

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#55

Post by haberman »

halo wrote: post #52
haberman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot like that, yes, but that was not introduced until CSS2 which is so big and complex that they've spent almost 15 years correcting it (CSS 2.1 keeps bouncing back and forth between "Working Draft" and "Candidate Recommendation"). Despite being first defined in CSS2 (1998) CSS tables were not supported in IE for 10 years (IE8, 2009), and while some of the blame for this is surely Microsoft's, with a standard as bi…

CSS1 was deliberately designed to be 'simple' which is why they avoided the problem of layout entirely. Appendix E of the specification even says so ( http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#appendix-e ).

Good to know -- though in that case, it seems inappropriate that web standards advocates were demanding everyone abandon table-based layouts when CSS did not actually support layout yet.

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#56

Post by flomo »

olavk wrote: post #33
haberman wrote: post #13

The W3C is broken: it has spent the last 10 years standardizing ideas instead of existing practice . This is totally backwards and leads to standards that are too complicated, unrealistic, and in many cases not needed at all. The W3C was originally created to standardize HTML, which was already being used by many vendors and users but in incompatible ways. That is exactly the right situation for creating a standard.…

I agree with you in general, but not in the case of CSS. The CSS layout model were indeed based on exactly the layout properties of "presentational HTML" which people were using for style and layout at that time. It was just made more fine grained, and separated from the markup. For example, the much hated "float/clear" layout model were based on the align="left|right" and clear="left|right" attributes which Netscape…

display:table- always felt more like a hack than as something part of the design.

As in "Oh, we forgot to model certain properties of tables that numerous websites actually use. Here's a workaround that imitates a table cell until we get around to figuring it out. PS: tables are still bad."

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#57

Post by flomo »

null_ptr wrote: post #29
haberman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What solution does CSS offer for three-column layout (with a resizable center column) that is remotely as simple as: Fixed left column. Liquid center column Fixed right column.

Fixed left column. Liquid center column Fixed right column. The whole point of CSS is to take things like width="200px" out of the markup.

> The whole point of CSS is to take things like width="200px" out of the markup.

IIRC, you could stick the TD's width value in a CSS class and it would work exactly the same.

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#58

Post by haberman »

alanh wrote: post #48
haberman wrote: post #13

The W3C is broken: it has spent the last 10 years standardizing ideas instead of existing practice . This is totally backwards and leads to standards that are too complicated, unrealistic, and in many cases not needed at all. The W3C was originally created to standardize HTML, which was already being used by many vendors and users but in incompatible ways. That is exactly the right situation for creating a standard.…

Have you ever heard of HTML5? It is fundamentally a codification & standardization of existing practice ( , parsing, short encoding meta tags) — and when it isn’t doing that, it addresses actual needs (like how to handle video and audio).

HTML5 was created by WHATWG (not W3C) in 2004. WHATWG was formed specifically because W3C had abandoned HTML in favor of XHTML. Only when it was clear that XHTML was a failure did W3C abandon it and join forces with WHATWG in 2007.

In other words, W3C missed the boat on this. I don't think it's to their great credit that they joined a three-year-old effort after it was already clear that the whole industry was headed towards HTML5 and not XHTML.

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#59

Post by epistasis »

alanh wrote: post #53
thaumaturgy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously asking someone on HN if they've ever heard of HTML5?

Rhetorical, and if I could still edit to take the tone a step towards neutral, I would. But parent is an out-of-place and out-of-date criticism of w3c in my opinion. At minimum, they should explain why HTML5 is not a counter-example of their claim

You should learn the history of HTML5, it's a perfect example of how the W3C is terribly broken, and certainly not an adequate or passable standards body. HTML5 was developed outside of W3C, in spite of the W3C, and at the objection of the W3C. Remember XHTML2? Hopefully not, but that's what the W3C wanted to do. The WHATWG formed to create HTML5 because browser makers wanted to improve the web and it was obvious that XHTML2 wasn't going to do that.

After it was clear how useful HTML5 was, the W3C was dragged into participation, but unlike W3C standards, HTML5 continued on with it's open development model where discussion takes place in the open.

The W3C has not contributed the idea, the execution, the prolitical process, or the people to HTML5, and HTML5 is a W3C standard by label only. If you look at the other standards the W3C creates, you'll see a pattern where standards are developed in isolation behind closed doors and without implementations, in direct contrast to any useable and useful standard such as HTML5. RDF, OWL, SVG, all abominations that seem to exist to hold back others from making reasonable and useful replacements.

Re: This Could be Big: Decentralized Web Standard Under Development by W3C

#60

Post by bandushrew »

haberman wrote: post #55
halo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSS1 was deliberately designed to be 'simple' which is why they avoided the problem of layout entirely. Appendix E of the specification even says so ( http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#appendix-e ).

Good to know -- though in that case, it seems inappropriate that web standards advocates were demanding everyone abandon table-based layouts when CSS did not actually support layout yet.

it was fairly inappropriate, and for the most part pragmatic web designers ignored it until it become realistic.

OTOH, it was the early adopters that were driving it, and I dont really have a problem with that. That is what early adopters do.

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