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The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

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Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#51

Key point: > The latest figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show the number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 6 November 2020 was 14.3% higher than the five-year average. But it is good to know that the measures to control COVID-19 are also suppressing flu and pneumonia (though not enough to make up for COVID-19 mortality).

A whole week of data!?

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#52

Key point: > The latest figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show the number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 6 November 2020 was 14.3% higher than the five-year average. But it is good to know that the measures to control COVID-19 are also suppressing flu and pneumonia (though not enough to make up for COVID-19 mortality).

Also, they didn't write the standard deviation, so that 14% is kind of useless

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#53
post #44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think looking at the last 20 years is pretty reasonable. All the years are within my lifetime. I agree we should not zoom out for the last 200 years. If the data only looks bad when you look at 5 year window, and not 20 year window, that seems like a pretty fragile argument.

To get a better idea of why zooming out 20 years isn't reasonable, take a look at the past 120 years in the US (Sweden's numbers likely follow the same trajectory): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/mortality-trends... Directly comparing 2000 to 2020 makes little sense given the consistent downward trend and magnitude of difference between 2001-2005 and 2015-2019. Given the downward trend in adjusted deaths…

I am afraid it is more complicated than that.

For example, before we decide that the last 5 years are a good average we should look at what the trend of the last 5 years looked like. If for example there was an upwards trend (which it was for many countries around the world) then even without COVID you'd expect that 2020 would have continued on that trend for whatever reason it was going that way. In that case it would be fairly unexciting to say that 2020 was above the 5 year average in the context of COVID.

In my opinion the fairest comparison would be to check if 2020 continued the trend of the last 5 years, or if it had a non linear jump upwards from that trend, but looking at figures such as "above average" doesn't mean anything if every year in the last 5 years was "above average" because it started to trend upwards again.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#54
post #3

The part I found interesting was the number of death from flu and pneumonia: 5 year average: 28,140 deaths 2020 so far: 18,325 deaths (does not include November and December!) COVID 2020: 53,675 deaths So while it does seem to be killing some people who would've died from the flu/pneumonia anyway, it's still nearly double the 5 year average which would make it one hell of a bad flu strain.

I am 100% certain that bunch of so called covid deaths were due to other things non covid related.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this, then. From https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog... : > There is one inevitable conclusion from these studies: COVID infection frequently leads to brain damage — particularly in those over 70. While sometimes the brain damage is obvious and leads to major cognitive impairment, more frequently the damage is mild, leading to difficulties with sustained attention. > Although many p…

No. The brain is an organ, not a span of time.

Well, now you're being deliberately obtuse, didn't bother to read the link, or perhaps both. The link I posted above compared the symptomology of COVID-related brain damage to moderate TBI. As the American Association of Neurological Surgeons says at https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurgical-Conditions-and-T... :

> Patients with moderate head injuries fare less well. Approximately 60 percent will make a positive recovery and an estimated 25 percent left with a moderate degree of disability. Death or a persistent vegetative state will be the outcome in about 7 to 10 percent of cases. The remainder of patients will have a severe degree of disability.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#56
post #49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other coutries used lockdowns.

Sweden basically did a lockdown - it just wasn't state-mandated. If you look at the mobility data [1], you'll see that Sweden followed a very similar trend to its neighbors, and actually maintained lower mobility after other state-mandated lockdowns let up. [1] https://www.teliacompany.com/sv/om-foretaget/uppdatering/mob...

The arbitrary choice of the reference point makes that bad data.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#57

what these numbers and the media and your average joe terrified of dying seem to miss is something thats qualitative, not quantitative: quality of life. length of life could be enhanced for many, safe and securely shackled to a bed in a quasi-coma with a feeding tube down your throat. such a person may very well ask to die. it pains me to see ederly and terminally ill people saying goodbye to loved ones on zoom conne…

I think it's very hard to see people dying and suffereing (often) alone. But I'm not sure what the solution to that is...do we open the Covid units up to visitors and ignore the consequence to spread from doing that?

Unfortunately, the politicization has turned this issue into a binary decision with bad outcomes on both ends. I think there is a place for people to engage in a more "normal" life even in the context of the pandemic...but it's hard to define that space in 2020.

Also, in my view, the covidiots aren't the people that wish they could be with their sick or dying relatives/friends. Those are the people that absolutely refuse (as a matter of principle) to do the bare minimum to help contain this...or worse, the people who pack clubs, parties, etc fantasizing that his pandemic doesn't really exist.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#58
post #15
post #3

The part I found interesting was the number of death from flu and pneumonia: 5 year average: 28,140 deaths 2020 so far: 18,325 deaths (does not include November and December!) COVID 2020: 53,675 deaths So while it does seem to be killing some people who would've died from the flu/pneumonia anyway, it's still nearly double the 5 year average which would make it one hell of a bad flu strain.

In Germany the number of deaths from COVID-19 is below the number of people who died from influenza in 2017/2018. So far COVID-19 klilled about 13000 people, while the official numbers for influenza 2017/18 is between 20000 and 25000.

People in the US complain that the pandemic is mismanaged and that too many people are dying. People in Germany complain that the pandemic is taken too seriously. Grass is always greener, I suppose.

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#59
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get a better idea of why zooming out 20 years isn't reasonable, take a look at the past 120 years in the US (Sweden's numbers likely follow the same trajectory): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/mortality-trends... Directly comparing 2000 to 2020 makes little sense given the consistent downward trend and magnitude of difference between 2001-2005 and 2015-2019. Given the downward trend in adjusted deaths…

I am afraid it is more complicated than that. For example, before we decide that the last 5 years are a good average we should look at what the trend of the last 5 years looked like. If for example there was an upwards trend (which it was for many countries around the world) then even without COVID you'd expect that 2020 would have continued on that trend for whatever reason it was going that way. In that case it wou…

Swedish life expectancy has been trending up and death rate trending down (the latter from 10.5 to 8.6 per thousand) since 2000.

https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subje...

Re: The number of people dying is not the same as in any other year

#60
post #58
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany the number of deaths from COVID-19 is below the number of people who died from influenza in 2017/2018. So far COVID-19 klilled about 13000 people, while the official numbers for influenza 2017/18 is between 20000 and 25000.

People in the US complain that the pandemic is mismanaged and that too many people are dying. People in Germany complain that the pandemic is taken too seriously. Grass is always greener, I suppose.

You'll find both kinds of people in both countries.
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