Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#51

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

throwaway2245 wrote: post #49

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

11 states including Alaska, Arizona, Nevada, and Michigan have a larger land area than the UK. [Edited to add: 46 states have a lower population density than the UK, adding further logistical consideration]

I don't understand what impact you think this makes?

If each community counts their votes... why does it matter how large an area they collectively cover?

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#52

Post by dariusj18 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #31

> Why doesn't the United States (and other democracies) require open source voting software for all elections? One thing that's different about the US is that each state is responsible for carrying out its own elections. There is some federal involvement, but it's mostly up to the states to implement. One often-cited advantage of this approach is that it makes it difficult to attack a presidential election because yo…

It doesn't necessarily need to be a Federal government program,. It could be an initiative that all states take up on their own, or even a Federal mandate that voting software be open source.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#53

Post by takeda » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

sova wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

Don't know about UK, but I suspect it is because they start counting as soon as they receive them.

In US there were some laws that counting couldn't start before polls are closed. Despite mail in ballots arriving a month earlier. In some places they weren't even allowed to prepare them for counting (like verifying signatures and removing ballots from envelopes).

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#54

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

takeda wrote: post #53

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

Don't know about UK, but I suspect it is because they start counting as soon as they receive them. In US there were some laws that counting couldn't start before polls are closed. Despite mail in ballots arriving a month earlier. In some places they weren't even allowed to prepare them for counting (like verifying signatures and removing ballots from envelopes).

The UK does not start counting until polls are closed. They count all ballots - both in-person and mail-in - within a few hours. They have a lot of people in gyms and just go through them quickly.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#55

Post by rootusrootus » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

sova wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We went from abacus to digital circuit painstakingly over thousands of years and you're using a compute-er with a screen to post this comment. There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. We could have audit-able ballots and public/private keys to check that our ballots have been counted and tabulated correctly. Is it the case, perhaps, that ballots are supposed to be "private"…

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

> This is much faster than US voting machines.

That's actually pretty much on par for much of the U.S. We have paper ballots and results mostly finished before the next morning. There are stragglers, of course, for good reasons, but you don't really hear much about those unless they are possibly going to decide the election, like this year.

And then of course 2020 is it's own special kind of fun, not typical of any other year.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#56

Post by dariusj18 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

godelski wrote: post #15

Everyone here is talking about paper ballots. Good, but this ignores OP's question. Most voting machines, even if they have paper trails, have some software in them. Just saying "paper ballots" doesn't address the issue. To answer OP's question, I personally have no idea but think it should be. Much of our scientific work is open sourced (e.g. codes from national labs, NASA, etc). But I think a lot of people don't un…

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

At some point in the process, vote information will be stored digitally. Whether it's posted to the SoE's website or during transmittal to the Federal or state governments.

I'm also trying to imagine elections with the number of people we have and number of races being counted by hand from the beginning, with no digital storage or tabulation, and it is rife with errors and even harder to validate in a reasonable way.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#57

Post by throwaway2245 » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #51

throwaway2245 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

11 states including Alaska, Arizona, Nevada, and Michigan have a larger land area than the UK. [Edited to add: 46 states have a lower population density than the UK, adding further logistical consideration]

I don't understand what impact you think this makes? If each community counts their votes... why does it matter how large an area they collectively cover?

It already has an impact within the UK.

St Ives constituency in the UK is generally the last to declare, presumably because the island populations are so small and remote it's considered unsafe for them to individually count and report the results for collation, for multiple potential reasons (Gugh: 3 residents)

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#58

Post by rootusrootus » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

takeda wrote: post #53

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing wrong with paper except its extreme inefficiency in the human realm. They aren't inefficient. In the UK (paper ballots) an accurate estimate is available when the polls close, and a certain result is available within a few hours before next morning. This is much faster than US voting machines.

Don't know about UK, but I suspect it is because they start counting as soon as they receive them. In US there were some laws that counting couldn't start before polls are closed. Despite mail in ballots arriving a month earlier. In some places they weren't even allowed to prepare them for counting (like verifying signatures and removing ballots from envelopes).

> In US there were some laws that counting couldn't start before polls are closed.

This is a good time to remind everyone that in the U.S. there are many different voting jurisdictions, and at the very least 50 different sets of rules. Some similar, some not. So it's difficult to generalize, some places count early, some not, some allow late arrivals, some not, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#59

Post by takeda » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #25

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to OP's question is... why have software at all? Why not just paper? Why do you want a 'voting machine' at all? What's wrong with paper? The solution to a problem that should not be solved with software is not to have different software.

Speed, I presume. With software, you can announce the results of an election the second after polling closes. The actual paper ballot count/verification might take a week, but that's one week of uncertainty you don't have to deal with.

Your comment reminds me of this: https://politics.theonion.com/poll-94-of-nation-would-rather...

Re: Ask HN: Why Isn't Open Source Voting Software Mandated?

#60

Post by whimsicalism » Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #40

whimsicalism wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as pre-counting is banned in some states and mail-in ballots exist, this sort of timeliness will not be possible in the US.

Pre-counting is banned in the UK. Mail-in ballots exist in the UK. How do you think we manage it?

Pre-"opening" is banned in many states in the US but is legal in the UK. See page 12 of https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/p... for instance or https://www.coventry.gov.uk/info/8/elections_and_voting/2434..., to see how the United Kingdom pre-opens and sorts postal ballots.