Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature • Hacker News Board

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#51

Post by erulabs » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 11:13 PM UTC

spanktheuser wrote: post #6

What a mess. In small tribes social control can be directly maintained as members have perfect knowledge of any individual’s reputation. This mechanism doesn’t scale beyond a few hundred individuals so institutions such as hierarchical organized religion were invented. We have established words (oppression) and jargon (social control) for this already. The author has decorated an old concept with new jargon and is pa…

I'm not sure it's fair to say the statement: " perpetrated in recent years by fanaticised supporters of " is the same as suggesting is an oppressor.

One can criticize the Red Terror, for example, without criticizing socialism - if that makes sense.

At any rate, even if I agreed with you, this idea of finding someones "secret motivations" and condemning them for it instantly loses me - there is plenty of good ground to fight on without guessing and accusations.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#52

Post by scsilver » Sun, Nov 08, 2020, 12:19 AM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #42

jberryman wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they control the schools Let's get specific with this one. What's one thing that is taught in schools that you object to?

I suspect that what's taught in schools about homosexuality would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives. I suspect that almost everything taught in the humanities in universities would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives.

Depends on what culture you are conserving, right? Maybe american conservatives ideology conserves a narrow judeo christian, protestant view that isnt necessarily the same conservativism that runs in jewish, Hindu, Catholic, atheistic communities. Sometimes these ideologies intersect on certain values, but it definitely does not contain the whole conservative view.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#53

Post by c22 » Sun, Nov 08, 2020, 12:22 PM UTC

throwaway201103 wrote: post #45

pjc50 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.

Gang violence is prosecuted, if the perpetrator can be identified. Gangs and people in gang-plagued neighborhoods are very reticent to name names, in fear of retaliation. Every police shooting is investigated. They are often found to be justified, sometimes not. There's room for argument about the impartiality of these investigations, especially historically. The fact remains that dozens of blacks are murdered every…

I haven't heard anyone claiming that "gangs are good" or suppressing debate about the pros and cons of gang violence. In fact, I've heard and seen a lot of good work by many parties concerned about the negative influence of gang activity in the US.

However, such discussions are definitely a red herring when advanced in the context of police violence--an entirely different and largely unrelated problem.

Heart disease is the leading cause of death among African Americans in the US and I hope someone's working on that, but if you argue that racially-skewed police killings aren't a problem because of heart disease then it's entirely expected and reasonable to be met with complete silence or active suppression.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#54

Post by dTal » Sun, Nov 08, 2020, 12:39 PM UTC

throwaway201103 wrote: post #45

pjc50 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.

Gang violence is prosecuted, if the perpetrator can be identified. Gangs and people in gang-plagued neighborhoods are very reticent to name names, in fear of retaliation. Every police shooting is investigated. They are often found to be justified, sometimes not. There's room for argument about the impartiality of these investigations, especially historically. The fact remains that dozens of blacks are murdered every…

1) Saying that police don't kill blacks as often as blacks kill each other misleadingly overlooks the frequency of interactions, and sheer outnumbering of police by regular folk.

2) Police are in a profound position of power and responsibility which makes crime committed by them a much more serious problem.

By analogy - if children are having punch-ups in the schoolyard, that's a problem. If the principal stops by occasionally and swings a punch or two, that's a real problem, and probably the one that should be fixed first.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#55

Post by jjk166 » Mon, Nov 09, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

throwaway201103 wrote: post #45

pjc50 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.

Gang violence is prosecuted, if the perpetrator can be identified. Gangs and people in gang-plagued neighborhoods are very reticent to name names, in fear of retaliation. Every police shooting is investigated. They are often found to be justified, sometimes not. There's room for argument about the impartiality of these investigations, especially historically. The fact remains that dozens of blacks are murdered every…

What bigger problem exactly are you referring to?

Systemic problems with various police institutions like poor training, overly powerful public unions, and minimal oversight have nothing to do with gang violence.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#56

Post by chrisweekly » Wed, Nov 11, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

baryphonic wrote: post #21

knolax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me they've been culturally dominant in America (i.e. they control the schools, the media, entertainment, government bureaucracy and now Big Tech) for over a century Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s.

> Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s. Progressive movements in general, not BLM and MeToo in particular. The Atlantic, The New Republic, the American Economics Association, Planned Parenthood and many other Progressive organizations have been around for over a century. BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights move…

> BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement.

That sounds like some ivory-tower theoretical nonsense to me. BLM is, on the whole, seeking the real-world application and reification of the original civil rights movement. It's not "expanding" any particular political philosophy to insist on justice by bringing attention to violent crimes perpetrated by law enforcement and the justice system against people of color. Institutionalized racism is real, and the degree to which saying "black lives matter" is necessary, let alone controversial, is telling.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#57

Post by hoot » Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #27

hoot wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you can't move out of the global village. Elon would like a word with you.

> > But you can't move out of the global village. > Elon would like a word with you. Really? Because to all evidence he is acutely aware of that fact.

A colony on Mars is not going to be a part of Earth's "global village".