Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#51

Post by alexvoda » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 9:47 AM UTC

alexvoda wrote: post #42

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

Note: all console generations so far had the option of loading software from physical media (even if there are models without this option, they are not the only model). As long as physical media is an alternative for loading software on consoles, consoles are not as restrictive as iOS devices (even if creation of that physical media requires licensing 1'st party development tools). Apple iOS is the only platform wher…

Furthermore, Apple is using their created monopoly on software distribution to create a monopoly on payments. Even if you disagree with me on the first part (platform -> distribution) I know of no other case where the second part is also true (distribution -> payments). Goggle may try to impose Google Pay for in-app payments but they do not have the a monopoly on distribution (F-droid, Amazon, Aptoid, etc. exist).

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#52

Post by jaimex2 » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 9:56 AM UTC

I really don't like Apple and would never develop something in their store but I have to admit - at least a human called him and he had some dialog. If this was Google it would have been shut down without any recourse and probably taken the devs entire Google account with it.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#53

Post by alexvoda » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:03 AM UTC

maratc wrote: post #50

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

“Well plaintiffs always want me to define relevant markets as narrowly as possible. It helps their case. And defendants always want me to define markets as broad as possible, because it helps their case.” — Judge YGR on Epic/Apple case.

In the end it will depend on the judge to define the markets.

But I am of the firm opinion that iOS devices and Android devices are not interchangeable even if you can do many of the same things on both and many apps are available on both platforms.

Just because a hatchback, a big rig and a personal airplane all get you from A to B while seated and all have air conditioning and entertainment systems does not make them fungible.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#54

Post by aembleton » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:04 AM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #38

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #34

Every app needs to have a built-in messaging channel that allows you to display rich-text (including clickable links) "news and updates" to your existing users. That way, when you do get kicked out from an app store, at least you can direct users to your web site (which is probably a violation of app store guidelines, but if it's your only/main revenue generating app, and already kicked out, having this option can be…

That app is called "email"

Only if you capture their email address which isn't necessary for most apps.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#55

Post by enos_feedler » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:04 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #35

pwinnski wrote: post #5

Update: It was indefensible, and Apple has already reversed course. It's a shame it sometimes takes twitter outcry for the right thing to happen, but at least the right thing happened. This seem indefensible at first blush. The app has been available as-is for years, so if the explanation given him is correct, it's a really bad look for Apple.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

Define computing. I am free to write and distribute computation via Javascript in Safari. Should computing be lower level? How low? From the bootchain? Who decides at what layer “free computing” should be wedged into a product? Why can’t Apple make that decision for themselves?

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#56

Post by floatingatoll » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #28

floatingatoll wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making an error, and then correcting that error 4 hours later, is certainly many things. "Unfathomably rapid" comes to mind as my first response.

If he hadn't got a large following on Twitter would it have been rapid?

Perhaps! Unfortunately, given the available evidence, there’s no way to determine whether it’s a true causative or a false correlation.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#57

Post by DarkWiiPlayer » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:08 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #35

pwinnski wrote: post #5

Update: It was indefensible, and Apple has already reversed course. It's a shame it sometimes takes twitter outcry for the right thing to happen, but at least the right thing happened. This seem indefensible at first blush. The app has been available as-is for years, so if the explanation given him is correct, it's a really bad look for Apple.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

> Computers, especially those with massive market share, should be open to 3rd party installs.

Why? If you don't like it, don't buy their product. I think iPhone is shit because of this, and other tactics to lock the user in, so I don't use it and wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#58

Post by DarkWiiPlayer » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:10 AM UTC

enos_feedler wrote: post #55

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

Define computing. I am free to write and distribute computation via Javascript in Safari. Should computing be lower level? How low? From the bootchain? Who decides at what layer “free computing” should be wedged into a product? Why can’t Apple make that decision for themselves?

Well... you can completely reprogram the device, if you have the tools and knowledge for it.

Apple has no obligation to make this process easy or even possible, and if the users still buy their products, they clearly don't care enough about these restrictions.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#59

Post by alexvoda » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

enos_feedler wrote: post #55

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

Define computing. I am free to write and distribute computation via Javascript in Safari. Should computing be lower level? How low? From the bootchain? Who decides at what layer “free computing” should be wedged into a product? Why can’t Apple make that decision for themselves?

Because they are making that decision for users. The devices are owned by users since the day of purchase.

Why can’t users make that decision for themselves? Granted, many people choose to buy Apple devices because they do not desire general computing devices and instead desire appliances.

But giving up that control erodes ownership itself. A device not fully controlled by you is not fully owned by you. You may own a license to use it for a limited time. But people do not buy hardware devices with the expectation of actually only buying a license to use them.

Re: Apple removes then restores DoNotPay app in the App Store

#60

Post by mavhc » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 10:13 AM UTC

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #57

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't happen in a world where the DOJ forces Apple to open up the platform to 3rd party installs. It's a computer, and the most popular computer in the US. It's also the only computer a lot of people own. It's not a dedicated gaming device - people use iPhone to call, edit media, find jobs, pay for things, calculate, date, do email. It's a computer. Arguments like "but you can't install on a Nintendo" aren't equiv…

> Computers, especially those with massive market share, should be open to 3rd party installs. Why? If you don't like it, don't buy their product. I think iPhone is shit because of this, and other tactics to lock the user in, so I don't use it and wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

Maybe iOS devices should come with a big warning label like cigarettes:

Warning: Apple solely controls what apps you can run on this device