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A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

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Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#52
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if that's both? What if it's neither? Then the court doesn't need to show a particular bias towards either party on this subject . As you have very astutely pointed out, there exist other circumstances which may compel a court to apply a bias one way or another. That's what courts are for. > What if is the higher earner that sacrificed an even higher position - do you make the lower earner pay them? If a decad…

> If a decade of childcare materially and demonstrably damaged their future career, they should take that into account. If not, no. They are a parent by their own actions, why should they be moated from the duty of parenting in the case of a divorce?

Please think about what you are saying for a minute.

You are saying that if one of the parents sacrifices their future to care for the child, and the other does not, during a divorce, the latter does not owe the former anything.

The better question is - why do you want to moat the latter parent moated from the duty of parenting so much?

Or, if parenting is too complicated, here's a simple example.

Bill marries Jill. Bill works, buys their food, pays their rent, pays their bills, does the housework, and pays Jill's way through medical school. Bill and Jill have no assets, because all the money went into Jill's education.

Jill graduates, becomes a doctor, starts making mountains of money, meets a pretty intern, and divorces Bill.

Does Jill owe Bill anything?

It's the same situation as with childcare. Bill put more into maintaining the marriage/child than Jill did. Jill benefited/was harmed less during the marriage. Bill deserves compensation after the fact.

Had the fruits of his labours gone into a savings account, he'd receive at least half of it on divorce. Instead, they went into developing Jill's earnings potential - so he's entitled to a share of it. Likewise, if instead of paying with money, he paid with childcare that was damaging to his career.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#53

I wonder why it's flagged, the article is clearly trying the best to be reasonable impartial. It's also well known that sometimes, in some countries maybe more then others, decisions wrt. children are biased toward mother's. I have seen one such case in my environment myself. I belive it is important that such Curt decisions are based on the combination of the situation both parents are in and guidelines in a imparti…

I looked for the vouch link but couldn’t find it.

Anyone who is interested in the subject should watch the “red pill” documentary.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#54

Wait, a web developer makes 1600 Euros but a "shop assistant" makes 3/4 of that?

Yep, they are a tad bit on the "extreme", but not that much off, if you asked me, I would have answered, from personal knowledge (these are "net" income, i.e. with income tax already paid):

shop assistant: 1,000-1,100 Euro/month but for 13 months of wage[0]

web designer[1]: 1,800-2,200 Euro/month but for 11 months of work only

[0] the 13th month wage is only part of the full month wage, but for low pays, like 1,000-1,100 it is a large part, probably 850-950 Euro

[1] maybe you are misguided on the definition of web designer, here in Italy that generally (but not always) means "a self-educated programmer that makes a somewhat basic living doing a few very small company sites at 500-2,000 Euro each and, if he/she is good, maybe has a handful of yearly contracts to maintain them, at 100-200 each per month".

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#55
post #4

A solution to a lot of these problems that I quite like is "birdnesting," where the child(ren) keep the home they live in, and the divorcing parents take turns moving in. That seems to be clearly best for the child (removes the instability of moving back and forth between homes) and while it's inconvenient for the parents, at least it's equally inconvenient.

The main problem I see with this is finances. It will cost more for two people living separately than together.

I strongly believe that most divorces would logically and financially require the existing house to be sold so that two smaller/cheaper residences can be bought or rented. This is espesially important to financial stability in instances where child support is dictated by an arbitrary formula (which tends to produce an unrealilistic amount) rather than the actual needs of the children, or where finances were already somewhat tight (most cases?).

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#56
post #20

No fault divorce needs to go away when there are children involved. That is basically the end of it. Marriage is ultimately about creating family. You can't undo your marriage once you have a child anymore than you can undo your parentage or undo your relationship with a cousin. If mom and dad want to screw around with other people, their rights to do so obviously should not be restricted, but there should be no out…

Any studies that can support your claims that the mental health crisis, lack of grit etc. are due to divorce?

A study would require us to run an experiment that takes two groups of families that are equivalent along some metrics, and then forcibly separates one subgroup, while letting the other remain intact. Obviously this is extremely unethical.

So no, there are no studies directly on this, just as there are no studies on how divorce has no effect on children. The fact is that when the first decision was made to allow no-fault divorce, such a system had never existed in the Western world and it eschewed thousands of years of practice. This demanding of scientific study for every little social detail is a major problem. Previous generations would have resorted to philosophy, rather than demand empirical data. CS Lewis's book 'The Abolition of Man' goes into why demanding empirical data for every little social policy, rather than listening more to tradition, is both self-contradictory as well as dangerous. So I'll refer you to that as the best 'study'.

In the grand scheme of history, the burden of proof is still on the people promoting no-fault divorce to produce a valid study showing that society is better off with no-fault divorce.

My viewpoint does not require as much proof since it is -- still today -- the typical state of western society.

At this point, no-fault divorce has been a thing for about 50 years in the USA, which is barely a blip in the grand scheme of history. In many parts of Europe, it is still not a thing, or much younger.

Suppose today I decided to raise my daughter without looking at her in the eye anymore. I made this decision without any data to either validate or invalidate my claim that raising her in such a way would make her a better person (how could there be such a study today?). However, since it's more comfortable for me to not make eye contact, it seems that this is my right as her father.

Now obviously, most people would say that that sounds cruel and inhuman. But really, it must appear no different to us than the idea of no-fault divorce would have appeared to our forerunners.

Now imagine that if a large subset of society made the same choice I did with my daughter, but many kept the normal view such that it was still normal to look children in the eye. Still, a large enough group of people didn't. Now suppose that 50 years later, after mental health and attachment problems appear in greater numbers in the populace, someone who questions why some no longer look our children in the eye is asked for a 'study' to show that looking them in the eye would fix things? Certainly such a demand should be met with incredulity.

So that's my response to you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and society is still waiting for the extraordinary evidence that no-fault divorce does not increase mental health problems in children. Otherwise, the original claim deserves to be prevented -- at least temporarily -- from influencing our social policy.

EDIT: downvotes should explain why, otherwise I interpret it as someone who disagrees but cannot formulate a cohesive argument to critique mine, which is rather sad really.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#57
post #27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the 'fix,' if there is one, likely needs to start with the social pressures on women to give up their lives to parent, with more equitable parenting expectations overall, and let that bubble up to the court baselines.

That becomes somewhat circular. It is impossible to reduce the social pressures on women to parent without simultaneously reducing the social pressures on men not to parent . Clearly in this case, the man wanted to parent. The thing stopping him was the power of the court’s decision. In the presence of a legal framework like this the only reasonable choice for a man is to assume he is expected not to parent, since th…

A question I have here, is _was_ he parenting before the divorce? The court has only the testimony and financial state of the two people on which to go with. If he was the one making the money, and she was home with the child, what does that say about _who_ was doing what work?

And yes, it would be good for there to be more pressure on men to parent, and on there being more acceptable models of parenting partnerships than breadwinner and child rearer.

I don't like the idea of court standards being tied to gender (or gendered roles), but it does have to take into account who was doing what work and how to ensure the safety of children while the parents disentangle their marital and financial bonds.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#58
I feel bad for this guy, unfortunately he is just at the beginning of the world of hurt and pain he most likely is goin to experience.

Having gone through an ugly family breakup, I can attest to how painful and stressful it is for everyone. Especially once the courts get involved.

From my experience the courts are very unsympathetic to any arguments outside the general consensus, almost to the point of being obtuse or jaded.

I know people think that children are better off having both parents involved in their lives but I beg to differ when selfish vendictictive parents are involved.

Childhood is important but it is not a lifetime, in some ways it is better to check ones ego and just step back and wait. Support the child as ordered by the courts and then when the child is an adult they can decide whether or not to have a relationship with the estranged parent. If they choose not to.. Accept that and live your best life, after all You don't own the child. (eventhough your ex may believe they do!)

This can be much easier on the child than witnessing constant bickering, accusations and pettiness between the parents. Possibly resulting in self harm or violence.

Just my point of view, might be wrong but nevertheless how I see it.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#59
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that look like in this situation? I agree, in theory, but _how_ is it applied to a divorce? How does it apply to the financial power imbalance of 'breadwinner' and 'active parent?' I'm also curious, what is the 'vice' in this statement?

The "vice" is society's expectations for women. The court can empower that vice by giving women preferential custodial rights. Or it can temper that vice by analyzing the attributes of a specific relationship and recognizing custodial rights accordingly.

While courts have an orientation based on social expectations, they definitely do "analyze the attributes of a specific relationship and recognize custodial rights accordingly".

IANAL, but I do have familiarity with the subject, and if you read a common law book, you'll see how the courts think.

Now, to be fair, in a way, we could say that courts don't give precedence to a parent based on the sex (this is made explicit in the law of a certain country I've examined)... but they could give it based on the hair count :-)

But again, courts definitely take into account many factor in the cases.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#60
post #41
post #34

The crux of the argument here seems to be that the author doesn't want to pay 650euros a month in child support for his kid. I have very little sympathy. The important person in all of this is the child, not him. His life is going to suck and he'll have no money. That's unfortunate but if the choice is between his life being rubbish and the child's life being rubbish it's a bit of a no-brainer.

650 a month is neccessary for a life not to be rubbish? Don't forget he's paying half the existing mortgage and needs to find a new place to live and support himself. It alludes to those costs adding up to be greater than the 1600 per month he makes...

What I've seen the alimony paying parent do in Belgium on the financial side:

- start to work part time as an employee.

- formally earn about the relatively high non-impoundable minimum.

- pay zero alimony.

- start a limited liability company to do business.

- have the business pay himself/herself zero wages, just benefits in kind (no or low tax).

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