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Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

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Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#51
post #26
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In India, usually people who could not land a plum corporate job would resort to teaching (UG level) and they are entrusted with the job of shaping the next batch of engineers/artists. Also, teaching as a job is not greatly rewarding financially, hence it is not a popular choice. One could only imagine the outcome. To state the facts, a school teacher teaching 4/5th grade kids would hardly be given a $150 salary. In…

$150 an hour? A day? A week? A month? A year?

Oops! Should have mentioned it, as microarchitect said, it's per month.

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the lack of education in the broader sense. I weed so many out in interview with simple comprehension questions. The trouble is that their education system and culture does them such a disservice that it's hard to spot the good ones in amongst the dross.

I'm not sure why you think it's question of culture. There are plenty of people of Indian origin in the US who have fairly strong ties to Indian culture, but I've never heard any complaints about them being unable to understand stuff.

Culture does matter. In India, boasting about ranks/marks of one's kids is pretty much a cultural thing, everyone does that, with an enormous pride. This breeds a batch of kids who want marks and not the knowledge or understanding of things. Almost everything is a darned 1/2/5/10 marks question. Even the interested ones are forced to conform and be one in the herd. Indian social framework by large kills creativity and promotes rote learning, and the effects thus seen are quite well known and obvious.

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think it's question of culture. There are plenty of people of Indian origin in the US who have fairly strong ties to Indian culture, but I've never heard any complaints about them being unable to understand stuff.

Culture does matter. In India, boasting about ranks/marks of one's kids is pretty much a cultural thing, everyone does that, with an enormous pride. This breeds a batch of kids who want marks and not the knowledge or understanding of things. Almost everything is a darned 1/2/5/10 marks question. Even the interested ones are forced to conform and be one in the herd. Indian social framework by large kills creativity an…

  Culture does matter. In India, boasting about ranks/marks of one's kids is 
  pretty much a cultural thing, everyone does that, with an enormous pride. 
  This breeds a batch of kids who want marks and not the knowledge or 
  understanding of things.
Fair enough. I agree with this.

  Almost everything is a darned 1/2/5/10 marks question. Even the 
  interested ones are forced to conform and be one in the herd. 
This maybe true, but I'm also not completely convinced. I don't think we lack creativity - there are any number of stories of 'jugaad' I could bring up here to make my point. We do attempt to conform a lot though - but even the Japanese do that and they don't seem to lack any creativity.

  Indian social framework by large kills creativity and promotes rote 
  learning, and the effects thus seen are quite well known and obvious.
Perhaps, I'm misunderstanding you, but the claim that the Indian social framework kills creativity is not at all obvious to me.

My thinking is that the middle class promotes rote learning because it values education and doesn't know the difference between real understanding and rote learning.

I once heard a really well-known American professor say "most people don't like thinking" and sometimes I think is true pretty much everywhere in the world. If you look at the Americans and kind of dumb ideas a significant minority of them have about any number of issues (evolution, Islam, Obama's birth, Saddam, the Iraq War) it's quite clear they lack some basic reasoning skills.

Therefore, I suggest the following (intentionally controversial) hypothesis. Only the smartest 25% of people are actually capable of thinking. Perhaps, in the US, it turns out that this set is a superset of those employed in technology companies. In India, through an accident of economic circumstances, this is not the case. This is probably why we see so many instances of "dumb Indian software developers".

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#55
post #25

"One other thing I could never get them to do was to ask questions. Finally, a student explained it to me: “If I ask you a question during the lecture, afterwards everybody will be telling me, ‘What are you wasting our time for in the class? We’re trying to learn something. And you’re stopping him by asking a question’.”" This is not just a Brazilian problem. Much of the university education in the US is the same. Ve…

Well, in the US at least its kind of impossible to pass math/engineering exams without having some sort of deeper understanding of the problem. It sounds like the exams in Brazil at the time didn't expand upon anything past memorized definitions - I think you'd be hard pressed to find a serious physics course in the US that would let you get away with that.

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#56
post #18

I love this story because as Feynman puts it, there's a difference between knowing the name of something and really knowing it. Since we're on the topic of light -- despite going to a great school and taking several physics courses, I suffered from a severe misconception until about a month ago. Maybe you have it too. Think about a light wave. You might imagine a diagram like this: http://betterexplained.com/wp-conte…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#57
post #18

I love this story because as Feynman puts it, there's a difference between knowing the name of something and really knowing it. Since we're on the topic of light -- despite going to a great school and taking several physics courses, I suffered from a severe misconception until about a month ago. Maybe you have it too. Think about a light wave. You might imagine a diagram like this: http://betterexplained.com/wp-conte…

You do indeed hammer away and long may you continue! Your site is very helpful resource for students and anyone with kids.

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#58
post #36
post #18

I love this story because as Feynman puts it, there's a difference between knowing the name of something and really knowing it. Since we're on the topic of light -- despite going to a great school and taking several physics courses, I suffered from a severe misconception until about a month ago. Maybe you have it too. Think about a light wave. You might imagine a diagram like this: http://betterexplained.com/wp-conte…

Personally I think the whole wave-particle business shouldn't be touched upon until the student understands that in reality those things are just complex vectors in a configuration space, not a little ball bouncing around. Equivalently you can think of them as outlined in Feynman's QED (which anyone interested in physics should read), as arrows. The word "wave" shouldn't ever be mentioned in introductory quantum mech…

But if you tell students "sometimes light looks like it's a wave and sometimes it looks like it's a particle" then they can parrot that back to you and sound smart. This is despite them not understanding the meaning of the words "looks like", "wave", "particle", or "sometimes".

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#59
post #28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was merely remarking upon the fact that your comment classified all Indians in one category, that of folks who mug up jargon, acronyms and definitions but are not really knowledgeable about the actual usage. However, let me assure you, not all Indians are like that. There are Indians with reasonable thoughts and rational curiosity. In all your interactions you might not have seen such kind, that's certainly unfortu…

While my sample size is small Most Indians who end up as programming H1b's have similar issues. My guess is it's jarring for people because the people who get into software in India are the mostly the type of people who would do something else in the US. PS: Still it's hard not to draw concussions about a country even know that your samples are biased.

My sample size is around 200.

Interestingly, I interviewed one fantastic Indian woman. Turned out, she'd been schooled by Catholics.

Re: Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

#60
post #25

"One other thing I could never get them to do was to ask questions. Finally, a student explained it to me: “If I ask you a question during the lecture, afterwards everybody will be telling me, ‘What are you wasting our time for in the class? We’re trying to learn something. And you’re stopping him by asking a question’.”" This is not just a Brazilian problem. Much of the university education in the US is the same. Ve…

I remember sitting in a class at Columbia and wondering why students were asking so many pointless questions, designed to show how much they knew rather than establish anything useful.

In my university (Oxford, Modern History) you feared looking stupid by asking questions at lectures, and instead asked your friends afterwards and read up yourself.

Different cultures, none are perfect, I guess.

I imagine Feynman's lectures would have made me feel "too stupid to ask". Probably says more about me than him :)

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