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Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

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Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#51

Post by helge9210 »

lucozade wrote: post #49
helge9210 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A coach can correct mistakes without yelling. Are you a professional coach or just think it would work this way? The athletes we are discussing are already selected as fit for the specific sport. All of them are very tolerant to stress from the training and competition. Unless stress of not doing exercise (correctly) is higher than stress from doing it (correctly) there won't be progress. What for an outsider looks…

Not the parent nor a professional coach but you wrote: "my daughter came to me in tears and complained coach is yelling at her". That doesn't sound like being selected for stress tolerance. That sounds a lot more like stress tolerance is being mentally beaten into them.

Selection is for physical capabilities (experienced coaches are actually looking at both parents in addition to child assessment). Stress tolerance is built up gradually as a side effect.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#52

Post by helge9210 »

colanderman wrote: post #44
helge9210 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my daughter came to me in tears and complained coach is yelling at her, I explained this is a good thing. This means coach is looking at her and is trying to correct her mistakes.

A coach can correct mistakes without yelling. "He's yelling at me because he cares" is the same internal logic that keeps many women in abusive romantic relationships.

I can give another example.

Sometimes kids overwork their heart and coach is supposed to stop the kid to protect their health. Coach can't tell the kid in front of the group "You worked too hard, come stand here and rest", this would make the whole group to feign being overworked. Instead the coach is saying "You're not working hard enough, come here and stand in front of the group as a punishment for being lazy".

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#53

Post by colanderman »

helge9210 wrote: post #52
colanderman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coach can correct mistakes without yelling. "He's yelling at me because he cares" is the same internal logic that keeps many women in abusive romantic relationships.

I can give another example. Sometimes kids overwork their heart and coach is supposed to stop the kid to protect their health. Coach can't tell the kid in front of the group "You worked too hard, come stand here and rest", this would make the whole group to feign being overworked. Instead the coach is saying "You're not working hard enough, come here and stand in front of the group as a punishment for being lazy".

As a former educator, that is a horrible way to deal with that situation. The kid learns the wrong lesson and feels terrible about it. Lazy adult "solutions" like that can traumatize children.

The proper solution is just tell the kid to take a breather without stating a reason (maybe tell them privately how to notice on their own when they are overworking themselves). The other kids won't notice or care.

(And if some kid is looking for an excuse not to do the exercises... why are they even there? And who cares? It's an extracurricular, the point is to get out of it what you put in. It's not boot camp.)

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#54

Post by helge9210 »

colanderman wrote: post #53
helge9210 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give another example. Sometimes kids overwork their heart and coach is supposed to stop the kid to protect their health. Coach can't tell the kid in front of the group "You worked too hard, come stand here and rest", this would make the whole group to feign being overworked. Instead the coach is saying "You're not working hard enough, come here and stand in front of the group as a punishment for being lazy".

As a former educator, that is a horrible way to deal with that situation. The kid learns the wrong lesson and feels terrible about it. Lazy adult "solutions" like that can traumatize children. The proper solution is just tell the kid to take a breather without stating a reason (maybe tell them privately how to notice on their own when they are overworking themselves). The other kids won't notice or care. (And if some…

It is not a prison. Everyone is free to go and never return. These kids are not there to learn a lesson. They are there to become champions.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #34
watwut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men in general don't like to perform to music, or see no need for it, as you say "biologicaly". Women on the other hand like it, "biologicaly" as you say. Yeah, that is why male dancers and male dancing is non-existend worldwide. Or otherwise said, can you prove it is "biological" rather then cultural?

How many males do you know how genuienly like dancing? You are picking a small population of males and generlizing to all of them. Most males have no interest in dancing. Nothing wrong if you do, but most don't.

> How many males do you know how genuinely like dancing?

Quite a lot.

> Most males have no interest in dancing.

AFAICT, this "men aren't expected to want to dance" thing is an extremely recent, and fading, Western social norm, not some kind of biological fact that is culturally invariant.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

jedberg wrote: post #5

It seems like a good first step would be to set the minimum age to compete at world championships or the olympics at 16 or 17 or maybe even 20. Then delaying puberty wouldn't be a thing because everyone will have passed it.

> It seems like a good first step would be to set the minimum age to compete at world championships or the olympics at 16 or 17 or maybe even 20. Then delaying puberty wouldn't be a thing because everyone will have passed it.

Delaying puberty will still be a thing because people that end up competing at the top levels start training intensely long before they are eligible to compete.

Its not like someone wakes up one day and says "I think I'd like to be an Olympic gymnast", trains for a few months, and competes at the Olympics.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#57

Post by dragonwriter »

jedberg wrote: post #9
nitwit005 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been multiple accusations of age falsification. If winning simply becomes a matter of faking a passport, several countries would be happy to do so.

True. What about a minimum height? Like 5’3” or so?

> True. What about a minimum height? Like 5’3” or so?

That's above the median adult female height in many countries. And gymnasts (even at full adult height), of both genders, tend to skew short.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#58

Post by dragonwriter »

watwut wrote: post #36
hitekker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I fall off the beam and land badly, and I’m hurting. The coach unleashes a torrent of curse words, yelling at me to get up again. I wait too long. ‘Get your butt up there right now or I’ll make you wish you had.’” > “He grabs me by the throat with both hands and lifts me into the air by my neck ... I hear him clearing his throat, followed by the sound of spitting, and feel a thick glob splat into my face.” You sho…

Small kids are not as good as verbalizing what happens. Meaning, at the age when this all starts, they will not put it into words like this. There is also strong cultural assumption that if coach is tough it is good. When kids are complaining, typically unable to explain exactly what the issue is, they are talked about as spoiled by helicopter parents or oversensitive moms. So, even parents who eventually take their…

> There is also strong cultural assumption that if coach is tough it is good.

There is some of that, but more a factor is that the measure of "good" is competitive success, and by that measure lots of tough -- even outright abusive -- coaches are good. You have to face that head-on to deal with the problem, that its not just a mistaken assumption of quality but often a flawed (because it does not view clear and visible verbal/emotional/physical abuse short of [but which can easily be a surface behind which hides] sexual abuse as a problem so long as success is achieved) but objective standard of quality.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#59

Post by watwut »

dragonwriter wrote: post #58
watwut wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small kids are not as good as verbalizing what happens. Meaning, at the age when this all starts, they will not put it into words like this. There is also strong cultural assumption that if coach is tough it is good. When kids are complaining, typically unable to explain exactly what the issue is, they are talked about as spoiled by helicopter parents or oversensitive moms. So, even parents who eventually take their…

> There is also strong cultural assumption that if coach is tough it is good. There is some of that, but more a factor is that the measure of "good" is competitive success, and by that measure lots of tough -- even outright abusive -- coaches are good. You have to face that head-on to deal with the problem, that its not just a mistaken assumption of quality but often a flawed (because it does not view clear and visib…

It is really just not only that. Though is seen a good among some people even if results are not superior. You can't be widely incompetent, but beyond that there is a lot of subjectivity.

The actual competitive level will hurt either way, but the abuse itself is not actually raising performance.

If you look at Larry Nassar scandal, he did not had superior measurable results. He just created aura of superiority around him. Altrought he was not framing himself as tough, he pretended to be gentle doctor.

Re: Women’s gymnastics is legal child abuse

#60

Post by watwut »

helge9210 wrote: post #52
colanderman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coach can correct mistakes without yelling. "He's yelling at me because he cares" is the same internal logic that keeps many women in abusive romantic relationships.

I can give another example. Sometimes kids overwork their heart and coach is supposed to stop the kid to protect their health. Coach can't tell the kid in front of the group "You worked too hard, come stand here and rest", this would make the whole group to feign being overworked. Instead the coach is saying "You're not working hard enough, come here and stand in front of the group as a punishment for being lazy".

That is horrible way of dealing with it.

First, you are literally punishing kid for being overworked, while claiming they are slackers are teaching them to overwork themselves even more next time.

The harder the kids try, the more the kid will be punished and claimed to be lazy.

Second, you are lying to the kids, they have no way to actually figure out rules.

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