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Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

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Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#51

Post by jchonphoenix »

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #30
xvector wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

I can't tell if you're being intentionally ironic or not. Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. You do realize that this is exactly what marginalized races have to tell their children, right? "You will have to work harder because of the color of your skin, and it might not matter at all." I don't know how to change the fallout of centuries of race-based slavery and th…

You do realize this is exactly what my mother told me throughout my childhood right?

And this is what my nieces and nephew are told.

We don't really have to imagine what it feels like to be marginalized. In your own words, we already are.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#52

Post by Dwolb »

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

Whether someone can do a job is a mix of experience and potential (y-intercept and slope). It’s difficult for interviewers to assess potential so many rely on experience as the key indicator.

It’s difficult for candidates from disadvantaged to show the same level of experience as candidates from non-disadvantaged backgrounds. Therefore candidates from disadvantaged backgrounds are systematically segmented out from the hiring pool.

Well-run diversity programs aim to better assess the potential of disadvantaged candidates and there are a variety of indicators for success.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#53

Post by threatofrain »

sJ646U9k6c6gME9 wrote: post #27
xvector wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

Come to the South: affirmative action isn’t a thing here. It’s a breath of fresh air. You’ll find that there are other freedoms that have been taken away from you in the north. All of them are alive and well here.

And where is the south on the conversation for race, especially Asians and other minorities?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#54

Post by john_moscow »

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

The elephant in the room is that due to rather dark times in the U.S. history, there are cultural differences between an average Black and an average White family. It doesn't mean that every family of a certain race will fit the stereotype, but if you look at numbers, they do check out. This isn't fair, this isn't nice, but it's a very important piece of the puzzle and you cannot solve the problem without admitting it.

Many of these cultural differences are crucial to getting high-paid positions. Like nagging on your kids to study. Like making sure their role models are scientists and inventors, and not gang leaders. Like stressing out delayed gratification and showing how planning and persistence pays off in long term.

If you look very carefully at company founders and people on high-paying jobs, almost every one of them will be from a family with these long-term values. Many Blacks have adopted these values and are successful. Nobody is telling them to go to a different drinking fountain, it's not 1930s anymore. So if you want to fix the problem for good, you need to advertise these values more, teach them at school, and give good examples. Maybe, remove roadblocks like providing free textbooks programming lessons for those in need. Unfortunately, this takes time, effort and only pays off for the next generation. So the racial equality movement has been hijacked by politicians that offer a short-term solution: divide people by the most visible factor, such as skin color, then take from the overrepresented and give to the underrepresented.

Except in the long term, it makes the society more divisive. If you hire a weaker candidate based on quotas, other employees will see the weakness and won't respect them. The employee will perceive this as racism and get offensive. If you try to further address it by promotion quotas, you start getting cliques where Blacks always side with other Blacks, and Whites always side with Whites. You've just created racism out of nowhere.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#55

Post by Hnrobert42 »

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

MS could increase their diversity by broadening where they advertise job listings, developing mentorship programs at schools with more diverse populations, or even simply changing the language used in job postings. Building a diverse work force need not (indeed should not) be as simplistic as hiring inferior candidates because they meet some quota.

Building a diverse workforce should be about making sure you get the very best people in the job. If the composition of their leadership team is dramatically skewed from the demographics of the general population, how can they argue that they scoured the country and found the very best?

The reason the NBA is different is because sports are based on physical abilities. Race, by definition, is a difference in physical traits. It is therefore unsurprising that race has a bearing on diversity in sports. Race has not been shown to have any bearing on one’s ability to do the work MS needs.

Why am I even explaining this to you? Can you seriously not understand the difference. FFS.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#56

Post by doggosphere »

xvector wrote: post #50
andrewstuart2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

I cannot imagine how you’d think that telling an Asian kid that they are held to a much higher bar for the same opportunities in any way exemplifies “equality.”

One could say the same thing about a freshman class comprising of 50% Asians, 49% white, 1% "other". Not sure it exemplifies "equality".

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#57

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #30
xvector wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action needs to die. As an Asian, I hate that I have to work harder just to get the same opportunities. Affirmative action is simply racism against minorities that “don’t matter” to the public narrative in favor of minorities that “do matter.” Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. While their friends get to go out and play, they have to sit down and study…

I can't tell if you're being intentionally ironic or not. Imagine telling an Asian child that they have to work way harder because of their race. You do realize that this is exactly what marginalized races have to tell their children, right? "You will have to work harder because of the color of your skin, and it might not matter at all." I don't know how to change the fallout of centuries of race-based slavery and th…

> "If you don't value diversity, maybe just say so..."

Personal attacks are against HN guidelines, no matter how well intentioned your cause.

Implying that Asians, Indians, and so forth are "privileged classes" and not "marginalized races" too and suggesting the diversity they bring is of no "value" is probably why this cause has negligible support among Asians, Indians, and so forth, beyond a bit of token lip service. Why work so hard to alienate and denigrate the very people whose support you ought to be courting to bolster your side?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#58

Post by xvector »

doggosphere wrote: post #56
xvector wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine how you’d think that telling an Asian kid that they are held to a much higher bar for the same opportunities in any way exemplifies “equality.”

One could say the same thing about a freshman class comprising of 50% Asians, 49% white, 1% "other". Not sure it exemplifies "equality".

If you think this is the problem, the solution is not racism via restricting the opportunities of children because of their race.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#59

Post by run2arun »

whoisjuan wrote: post #41
run2arun wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not reasonable to use the general population as the reference. Should NBA players' races reflect the general population's? There are better references like the number of African Americans graduating with computer science degrees. And if that number is low, that's the one to boost.

Well that's exactly what I meant. I said that something in the downstream equation is broken if the outcome doesn't reflect a similar proportion.

The tech population need not reflect a similar proportion ever. It depends on people's individual interests, who different cultures follow as role models etc.

This question somehow only arises in tech. No one cares about making races equitable in other industries as much. What about farming? Or similar proportion of dentists, farmers, chess players?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#60

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

threatofrain wrote: post #53
sJ646U9k6c6gME9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to the South: affirmative action isn’t a thing here. It’s a breath of fresh air. You’ll find that there are other freedoms that have been taken away from you in the north. All of them are alive and well here.

And where is the south on the conversation for race, especially Asians and other minorities?

About on par with the Midwest and Northeast by every metric I'm familiar with. The stereotype of the South as an atypically racist place is outdated.
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