How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#51

Post by dpc_pw » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #38

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power > I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes One of this must be incorrect. If tech workers have good negotiating power, they should be able to get rid of non-compete clauses. If they can't, see, that's what union can do (a…

I agree that negotiating power is not equal and situation is not perfect. Part of the reason is people being unaware, naive etc. to negotiate such a clause away in their contract.

But a law like in CA is much better solution for cases like that, than dealing with Unions, IMO.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#52

Post by yibg » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

tekdude wrote: post #28

ardy42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining. Some existing blue-collar unions have work rules like that, but I think it's a fallacy that a tech worker union would necessarily work exactly the…

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

Anti union messaging or just they are more common place? Lots of examples of unions with rigid rules, corrupt practices etc. But so far everyone only points to the screen actors guild as a counter example. Are there many other unions like it?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#53

Post by dnautics » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are particularly effective when labor is commoditized and fungible. Less so when labor is not exchangeable (suppose it hinges on the question of if a guild more like a union or a cartel?). Programmers like to think they are unique and irreplaceable. Some of them are. Others, probably not so much.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#54

Post by abeppu » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #24

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

It doesn't replace one untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with another. It just means involving a second untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with its own goals in my contract negotiations. Some might say that unions are better, but that has not been true historically in the US - they have a long history of corruption, power-grabbing, leadership with incentives that aren't aligned with the best interest…

> Europe has a totally different union model that is interesting and seems to work better, but it isn't really an option in the US.

Can you say more about what prevents a union in that model from being formed in the US?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#55

Post by blueline » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

dorkinspace wrote: post #30

matsemann wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

> or is it a one-off being used to spread fud

you replied to this with a one-off anecdote to spread fud

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#56

Post by ghaff » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

dorkinspace wrote: post #30

matsemann wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

The situation around conventions is particularly bad. The nickel and dime-ing of the venues are part of it but, as you say, many of the work rules are pretty stereotypically outrageous. Not that everything is entirely unreasonable; at convention center scale, things would descend into chaos rapidly if booth staff and others started winging things. But it's pretty bad especially in places like NYC.

It's not universally bad but, as someone else said, organizations become about themselves and their leadership. A former GF was in a union and she had very few good things to say about hers. [ADDED: That is an anecdote. I state no opinion about unions generally.]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#57

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #51

sanxiyn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power > I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes One of this must be incorrect. If tech workers have good negotiating power, they should be able to get rid of non-compete clauses. If they can't, see, that's what union can do (a…

I agree that negotiating power is not equal and situation is not perfect. Part of the reason is people being unaware, naive etc. to negotiate such a clause away in their contract. But a law like in CA is much better solution for cases like that, than dealing with Unions, IMO.

Unions can be a way for likeminded workers to pool together lobbying efforts. How would such a law right now be proposed and advanced? Certainly not by the lobbying arms of Big Tech.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#58

Post by bhupy » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

radu_floricica wrote: post #40

throw_m239339 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. In USA that is, things can be very different abroad.

Any country where tech workers are mistreated as a rule?

China. they've got the notorious "9-9-6" hours. "9 AM to 9PM, 6 days a week".

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#59

Post by ghaff » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

blueline wrote: post #55

dorkinspace wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

> or is it a one-off being used to spread fud you replied to this with a one-off anecdote to spread fud

Anyone who has ever worked events will tell you that is hardly a one-off anecdote.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#60

Post by dnautics » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

dayjobpork wrote: post #26

renewiltord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. I'm not anti-immigrant and I know large groups of disgruntled software engineers (precisely the union-fans) are. So I need to reduce their power. So I'm anti-union.

This literally makes no sense. Australian unions have been giving free representation to immigrants bring exploited by employers

without commenting on the truth of the statement (I don't know, I've never talked to american programmer's unions), in the US, unions have traditionally backed anti union sentiment, for example, chinese exclusionary acts in the late 19th and early 20th century.