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Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

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Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#51

Post by ben_w »

TheCapeGreek wrote: post #9
irrational wrote: post #4

Would this have any affect on software developed outside of the USA? The USA is becoming increasingly irrelevant on the world stage. Couldn’t a company in some other country create a browser with encryption that any of us could use? Could Apple move iOS development offshore and continue creating a mobile OS with encryption?

Not necessarily affecting software developed outside the US, but most likely if your non-US company has communications in your app and US customers, you'll be screwed. For consumers, vice versa with using apps from FAANG since your communications will now be affected by nonsense US laws. This is of course unless the big companies want to split their apps into US & Worldwide versions, which is probably not happening a…

I wouldn’t bet against a USA-RoW split any more. ~90% of internet users are outside America now, and even accounting for income differences more than 2/3rds of the money is outside the USA.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#52

Post by [deleted] »

ghastmaster wrote: post #50

> The EARN IT Act cynically uses crimes against children as an excuse to hand control of online privacy and speech over to state legislatures I like the idea of federal legislature ceding power to state legislatures. Additionally, it looks like encryption is offered more protections in this bill, Considering federal laws preempt state, especially with regard to telecommunications, I do not see what the risks are with…

[deleted]

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#53

Post by ry454 »

Politics can be Luddites too? They see the world is moving forward, and as it's escaping the reach of their small grabby hands, they enact the "Earn IT" act as an attempt to return the times where their little grabby minds were able to watch and control others.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#54

Post by jariel »

StavrosK wrote: post #21
Freak_NL wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. Of some governments. If you are not one of the five (or whatever) eyes, you probably won't get your hand in WhatsApp's panties; much to the annoyance of those governments (e.g., the Dutch government which in its current incarnation seems to have developed a dislike for end-to-end encryption as well). For American citizens to be spied on b…

> China sidesteps this issue completely by using home-grown platforms like WeChat of course. How is that different from what the US does? It seems to me an error to think that US companies are somehow the default, and any other country using its own services is sidestepping the issue.

"How is that different from what the US does?"

? They are quite different.

Facebook is a social network. On occasion, with a warrant approved by an independent Judiciary, an agency may request on a case by case basis, information relating to a specific concern for which there are specific indications warranting a search - much like the search of your car or home.

WeChat is a control, censorship and surveillance network.

- WeChat, like >90% of Chinese companies, has CCP party apparatus that work within the company who overview protocol to ensure loyalty to the CCP agenda. The US 'equivalent' would be the CIA having staff at Facebook to intercede in policy decisions and to make sure 'The Man in the White House' has his policy objectives met.

- WeChat censors everything. If you, right now, start saying something negative about Xi, it will likely get censored by one of the massive army of censors. The US equivalent would be 100% of Facebook posts going through a 'large office in Virginia' where President's political operatives oversee censorship.

- WeChat censors anything they want, for whatever reason. Winnie the Pooh comparisons to Xi? Banned. References to Tiannamen or Hong Kong protest? Banned. The US equivalent would be Facebook banning all memes mocking Trump, and of course, banning any and all activity related to BLM, social justice, protests, any kind of history that contradicts the ruling American party's official view of the world.

- WeChat is used used to identify networks of civil antagonists. Have you said something about 'Hong Kong'? Well, you're friends are going to be tagged and more likely monitored. The US equivalent would be government operatives sifting through the Facebook DB all day, using that information to monitor your friends messages, because you said 'Black Lives Matter'.

- WeChat is used for a host of other things including payment etc. meaning the breach of privacy is considerably more significant. Everything you buy, everywhere you travel etc. tracked and monitored at all times.

[1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/10/which-me...

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#55

Post by tokamak-teapot »

fsflover wrote: post #33
sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

> I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. This is very pessimistic. People still can understand the dangers (and are understanding) and switch to decentralized platforms, which by the way are actively being developed: https://joinmastodon.org .

And will just be banned and blocked

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#56

Post by mulmen »

mjevans wrote: post #45
zoobab wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2020, still a nightmare to make 2 computers both connected to the internet talk to each other. One day IPv6 will get rid of the platforms.

Actual competition for ISPs / access provision is required for this. All consumer ISPs still ban "servers" on their pipes; this is a clear sign of insufficient competition.

My consumer ISP allows me to host servers. I can add on a static IP for a few bucks a month and as long as I don’t break any laws they’re cool with it.

Previously I had “business class” internet but that is just the name of the plan. Anywhere there was cable I could get business class plans.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#57

Post by Aozi »

mr__y wrote: post #46
Aozi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do we solve this problem? We don't, we accept that encryption is part of the modern world and learn to live with it. Because there's nothing else you can do about it. See encryption is just math, and you can't really outlaw or limit how math is used. If we have bad actors who want to encrypt their communication, they absolutely can with or without this bill. Even if Whatsapp/Telegram/Whatever has to provide the…

> anyone can make their own communication platform and then the users of that platform would simply stand out in ISP logs making it actually easier to spot them. If this platform was a dedicated tool developed by/for a bad actor, then everyone working with/for that actor would be easily found. Given that, it seems that steganography (combined with encryption) could be a solution with a "battle" between steganographic…

>and then the users of that platform would simply stand out in ISP logs making it actually easier to spot them.

Yeah no.

Encrypted data would still be flowing all over the place, if our bad actors use VPN's to hide their traffic then it would become impossible for ISP's to see what they're doing or using.

In addition, even if you can pinpoint who's using encrypted communications, unless you can prove they're actually engaged in some criminal practice, it won't do you much good. With EARN-IT the responsibility is on the encryption providers, so those two random devs who made the app. You can't tell what the users were talking about since communication is encrypted, you can't really prosecute any of the users for anything besides maybe using those apps if it becomes completely illegal or you can prove that the app is only used by criminals and no one else.

Now you can potentially go after the devs, assuming of course you can figure out who made the app, and assuming these people are in a place where US laws apply. The global nature of the Internet makes things very difficult. If a Swedish team develops and encrypted communication app and distributes it on their website, are they still required to comply with US laws? If they prevent US citizens from downloading the app with geoblocking but people get around it with VPN's, are they still required to comply with US laws?

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#58

Post by HappyDreamer »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #55
fsflover wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. This is very pessimistic. People still can understand the dangers (and are understanding) and switch to decentralized platforms, which by the way are actively being developed: https://joinmastodon.org .

And will just be banned and blocked

And (more pessimistic future) you'll go to prison if you install such an app, or visit a website that tells you those apps exist.

Already happened in some countries.

B.t.w. someone wrote long ago here at HN that the 2nd amendment about weapons, nowadays should be about cryptography instead. Maybe:

> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to [use end-to-end encryption], shall not be infringed.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#59

Post by raxxorrax »

sdoering wrote: post #3

I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. Platforms are as easy to regulate, as for example the telephone companies were back in the days. They were easily forced to comply with wiretapping demands of the government. The moment a central platform controlled (most of) our communication and was able to…

That https was established as defacto-standard was a huge success and I don't think it will go away again.

Freedom only works with some responsibility, but it seems to me that state level actors just try to keep up with the ad and tech industry in collecting data.

The EFF tries to blame it on Barr, but I think the wish for control is bipartisan, especially since a generation is in charge that doesn't really understand the problems of this data collection. Not that their younger compatriots seem more promising in assessing actual problems.

There might be a point where using a Asian or African social network would be preferable, but that is something not on the mind of common social media users. Sure, they do it if the product has appeal like TikTok. On bad days I wish users of social media (the self presenting kind) would be banned from all other sites.

Re: Stop the Earn IT Bill Before It Breaks Encryption

#60

Post by zaarn »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #55
fsflover wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I strongly believe we have lost the war for privacy and security (against state level actors) already. Once the net adopted the platform model, we were screwed. This is very pessimistic. People still can understand the dangers (and are understanding) and switch to decentralized platforms, which by the way are actively being developed: https://joinmastodon.org .

And will just be banned and blocked

Well, if a mastodon instance admin decides to ban you, that's their personal decision. You can go to another instance.

If another user blocks you, that's on them but you have no right to push your messages into another user's home system.

If all else fails, you can host your own. It's ultimate free speech as intended and as someone who hosts a mastodon instance, it's a system that works pretty good, there is no noticeable hatespeech in my federated timeline.

edit: I might have misunderstood the GP, but I'll let the comment exist. Banning mastodon in the US is a non-concern since it's a french open source development.

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