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In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

theatlantic.com

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Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#51

Post by maximilian »

sspencer wrote: post #29
maximilian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone c…

I meant simple in the sense that it would be a pretty straightforward way for me to help people like Ms. L. I doubt it would be in any way easy. And I taught my mother from basic computer illiteracy into practically a power user (well, a relative power user: email and surfing and transferring images from her digital camera. she's the envy of all her friends, at least...). The biggest hurdle was getting her to believe…

I was basically joshing you. I agree with you on that hurdle though. Most people think of computers as machines. If you use a machine incorrectly, or in the wrong order, you can break it or even injure yourself. Computers, usually at least, don't work that way. It'd be pretty hard for my parents to mess up the computer more than losing that email they just spent the last hour hunt-and-pecking away at.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#52

Post by aasarava »

neilk wrote: post #47
maximilian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be such a simple thing for me and judging by Ms. L's plight, it could make all the difference in the world to some people. SIMPLE!!!??? You clearly didn't teach your parents to use computers. Teaching people how to use computers is one of the more challenging and frustrating things I have yet to do. Besides perhaps math, computers baffle more adults than anything I can imagine. I used to have 2 hours phone c…

It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles. We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing:

- Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?"

- Macs: "If I want to eject the CD, I'm supposed to throw it away in the trashcan?"

- Cell phones: "So you're saying I have to hold down the off button if I want to turn the phone on?"

So yeah, we do have a long, long way to go.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#53

Post by oz »

edw519 wrote: post #42
hugh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had any deep face-to-face conversation with them. Try reading the comments on youtube. I'd expect even a car m…

...whether they just have psychological barricades... I'm convinced that this is the bulk of the problem. Perhaps I'm still an idealist, but I have always believed that almost anyone can learn almost anything. Ever think of asking a parent how many times they'd let their baby fall before they gave up teaching him to walk? They'd look at you like you're from another planet. They'd probably answer, "He'll keep trying a…

Aha, but walking is an inherent human capability, waiting to be learned. I honestly don't think that everyone can learn anything. we can certainly do better than the status quo, but expecting the average layman to grasp advanced physics seems a bit of a stretch. There's something to be said for raw talent.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#54

Post by blogimus »

aasarava wrote: post #52
neilk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tries my patience too, but we just have to remember: to the uninitiated, it's all rectangles. You and I see 'windows', 'buttons', etc, but to them it's all rectangles. We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to ejec…

Or also with the cell phone: "Why do I have to press 'send' to make a call? On a regular phone, I just dial the number. I press 'send' when I send a fax."

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#55

Post by khill »

weebob wrote: post #44
hugh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what these colleges should be doing, if they're taking student's money. Oh, and also... if you're going to be claiming to be an English lecturer and complaining about illiteracy, you should probably master the rules of apostrophe placement first.

Two contractions and one possessive; what's your problem?

I'm guessing he/she thinks it should be plural possessive - students' instead of student's

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#56

Post by edw519 »

oz wrote: post #53
edw519 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...whether they just have psychological barricades... I'm convinced that this is the bulk of the problem. Perhaps I'm still an idealist, but I have always believed that almost anyone can learn almost anything. Ever think of asking a parent how many times they'd let their baby fall before they gave up teaching him to walk? They'd look at you like you're from another planet. They'd probably answer, "He'll keep trying a…

Aha, but walking is an inherent human capability, waiting to be learned. I honestly don't think that everyone can learn anything. we can certainly do better than the status quo, but expecting the average layman to grasp advanced physics seems a bit of a stretch. There's something to be said for raw talent.

I was careful to use the word "almost" twice. The interpretation of "almost" is obviously up to the reader.

With that in mind, if you could teach many "average laymen" to grasp advanced physics, I really wouldn't be all that surprised. Of course, there is something to be said for raw talent, lots of which remains hidden because of many factors. The power of human capability never ceases to amaze me, even under the most difficult circumstances.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#57

Post by oz »

pi3832 wrote: post #39
weiser wrote: post #16

I can bet that woman must be good at something she has never been tested on and probably does not know about. Maybe if we start from the premise that most individuals have something they are really good at, we might be able to move beyond the educational system of As and Fs and take advantage of people's abilities to the fullest.

>I can bet that woman must be good at something she has never been tested on and probably does not know about. Hah. That women may very well be average at a lot of things, and bad at the rest. This idea that "everyone has a special gift!" is just pixie-dust dreaming. Most people simply aren't special, in any sense of the word. Fight Club: "We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millio…

Amen. It smacks of the 'Oprah-watching, feel-good-book-reading, "let's hold hands and sing kumbaya"' bullshit that pervades society.

The fact is that people have differing levels of ability. but with everybody screaming for 'equality,' everyone has to have some 'special gift.' I'm not saying that some lives are worth more than others (although there's an interesting philosophical argument against this), but the idea that 'you can do anything you set your mind to' is false.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#58

Post by dfranke »

marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

How old are you? The baby boom generation seems mostly literate, but my generation, gen Y, is basically incapable of constructing a sentence. In my senior year high school English class I had a teacher who liked me, so she had me grade papers in lieu of some other work. In particular, I remember proofreading drafts of my classmates' college admissions essays. They were deplorable. The best one was grammatically tolerable, adhering closely to the rigid five-paragraph "keyhole" format that we'd all had drilled into our heads, but was all about how much the author loved playing Counterstrike and the lessons it taught him about teamwork. The worst few were outright incomprehensible. I handed those back to the teacher unedited and asked her whether their authors spoke English as their native language. They did. And this was an honors class at what is generally considered the strongest public high school in Florida.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#59

Post by MaysonL »

edw519 wrote: post #56
oz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha, but walking is an inherent human capability, waiting to be learned. I honestly don't think that everyone can learn anything. we can certainly do better than the status quo, but expecting the average layman to grasp advanced physics seems a bit of a stretch. There's something to be said for raw talent.

I was careful to use the word "almost" twice. The interpretation of "almost" is obviously up to the reader. With that in mind, if you could teach many "average laymen" to grasp advanced physics, I really wouldn't be all that surprised. Of course, there is something to be said for raw talent, lots of which remains hidden because of many factors. The power of human capability never ceases to amaze me, even under the mo…

I have a feeling that almost all three-year-olds could be brought (over time) to an understanding (by age 12-15) of a reasonable portion of advanced physics. However, after a few years of indoctrination in most schools, almost all of them will have become almost incapable of doing so.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#60

Post by edw519 »

MaysonL wrote: post #59
edw519 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was careful to use the word "almost" twice. The interpretation of "almost" is obviously up to the reader. With that in mind, if you could teach many "average laymen" to grasp advanced physics, I really wouldn't be all that surprised. Of course, there is something to be said for raw talent, lots of which remains hidden because of many factors. The power of human capability never ceases to amaze me, even under the mo…

I have a feeling that almost all three-year-olds could be brought (over time) to an understanding (by age 12-15) of a reasonable portion of advanced physics. However, after a few years of indoctrination in most schools, almost all of them will have become almost incapable of doing so.

My "lots of which remains hidden because of many factors" = your "few years of indoctrination in most schools".
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