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TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

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Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 7nm 5nm etc. ceased to refer anything physical after the technology moved on from planar transistors. Now it's just a commercial name for a generation. The most important dimensions are the gate pitch and metal pitch. For TSMC's 7nm process they are something like 60 and 40 nm and go down in the future to something like 30 nm and 20 nm in the 2nm process. Fin width might be the closest thing to commercial…

Very interesting, thank you. So we're basically not nearly as close to "true" 7nm as I thought? Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed?

>Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed?

If you will forgive the expression. Yes and No.

Yes in that TSMC has ideas / plans scaling all the way to 0.8nm, targeting 2030. That is only a few steps above what you described as true 7nm.

No in that no one knows if it will work. We know Quantum Tunnelling will hit some day, some where, some how, at some percentage.

Remember you are talking about leading edge Semi-Conductor manufacturing. Nothing like this has ever been done before.

It is a bit like telling me 5G today was possible when I was researching on first gen 3G two decades ago. If you describe to me with theory I will have properly said yes..... but it is hard to imagine how it will actually be implemented.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#52

Is TSMC the only who is close to doing this? What about Samsung or Intel? Or research labs that do smaller runs?

FWIW I thought Samsung trademarked the name MBCFET. Not saying that is in fact worth much, just that I know for a fact Samsung has been concrete about when this is going to be a process customers can use. On paper I don't think it's risky to say everyone is looking at GAAFETs and MBCFETs, they're the evolution of finFETs (okay, we have the fin, what about more than one fin? Okay, how about the channel is surrounded b…

That is certainly not true.

TSMC has always had a conservative culture. They dont aim at x% of improvement per process node like Intel. GAA for 3nm has long been known to be not ready for 2022. They actually mentioned this in 2019. But it was only confirmed later at a conference that Anandtech picked it up. Mainstream media being an echo chamber decide to copy each other and the news spread like wild fire.

So it was only logical to push those improvements to 2nm.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#53
post #13

Can someone ELI5 how TSMC is able to produce sub-7nm chips? I know quantum tunneling and the like becomes an issue at this size. I don't have a great physics background so I'm struggling to find a simple enough explanation for how they are dealing with this. Is it not as big a deal as I may think?

der8auer "14nm and 7nm are NOT what you think it is - Visiting Tescan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQUXpZpLXI

for reference "TESCAN is a leading global producer and supplier of scanning electron microscopes, focused ion beam scanning electron microscopes and micro-CT solutions."

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#54
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 7nm 5nm etc. ceased to refer anything physical after the technology moved on from planar transistors. Now it's just a commercial name for a generation. The most important dimensions are the gate pitch and metal pitch. For TSMC's 7nm process they are something like 60 and 40 nm and go down in the future to something like 30 nm and 20 nm in the 2nm process. Fin width might be the closest thing to commercial…

That's interesting, I saw a hobbyist photo lithography setup the other year that was able to etch metal with a resolution of 20nm.

Can't edit this, what I saw was definitely um and not nm.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#55
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number 7nm 5nm etc. ceased to refer anything physical after the technology moved on from planar transistors. Now it's just a commercial name for a generation. The most important dimensions are the gate pitch and metal pitch. For TSMC's 7nm process they are something like 60 and 40 nm and go down in the future to something like 30 nm and 20 nm in the 2nm process. Fin width might be the closest thing to commercial…

Very interesting, thank you. So we're basically not nearly as close to "true" 7nm as I thought? Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed?

To make transistors smaller, and not just draw them with finer resolution, the industry will need a new way of controlling the channel. FinFET got us here. Most likely gate-all-around will be the technique that gets the “true” geometries smaller.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multigate_device#GAAFET

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#56
post #51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting, thank you. So we're basically not nearly as close to "true" 7nm as I thought? Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed?

>Do companies like TSMC already have a plan as to how to deal with "true" 7nm or is a lot more research still needed? If you will forgive the expression. Yes and No. Yes in that TSMC has ideas / plans scaling all the way to 0.8nm, targeting 2030. That is only a few steps above what you described as true 7nm. No in that no one knows if it will work. We know Quantum Tunnelling will hit some day, some where, some how, a…

Technically it’s figured out. Gate-all-around has been experimentally demonstrated at pitches less than FinFET. The primary problem is, who is going to pay it. The economics are very tough at these 1s of nm nodes but hopefully that’s only a transitory problem.

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#57
post #13

Can someone ELI5 how TSMC is able to produce sub-7nm chips? I know quantum tunneling and the like becomes an issue at this size. I don't have a great physics background so I'm struggling to find a simple enough explanation for how they are dealing with this. Is it not as big a deal as I may think?

Not the explanation you're looking for, but the CTO at TSMC co-invented the modern FinFET transistor. They've probably good a really good grasp on what issues block development of smaller features, and know how to find ways around those limits. https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/how-the-fat...

He also wrote an excellent introduction to semiconductor physics textbook, that Berkeley hosts for free!

https://www.chu.berkeley.edu/modern-semiconductor-devices-fo...

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#58
post #39
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy. You take a very small number, add the letters 'nm' to it, and then start sending out press-releases to the major media outlets. That number has nearly zero bearing on the actual physical sizes of the chip's components. The only people who know about the exact dimensions are the firms placing manufacturing contracts with TSMC.

>That number has nearly zero bearing on the actual physical sizes of the chip's components. AFAIK the reason behind this madness is that the number previously did correspond to feature size, but then they discovered methods of increasing transistor density without decreasing the size of the components. Since the feature size was used in marketing as a proxy for transistor density, they felt it was ultimately justifie…

That number used to set the scale for the design rule set.

https://www.electronics-tutorial.net/Digital-CMOS-Design/CMO...

Re: TSMC to Mass Produce Breakthrough 2nm Mbcfet Transistors in 2024

#59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all the electronics and physics chans I binge on youtube I'm surprised this one never hit the suggestion fan, it's utterly fascinating

der8auer is basically the patron saint of PC overclocking, highly recommend his coverage of new hardware because he goes straight to doing interesting stuff and skips the usual review stuff that everyone else repeats.

I think we left the holy land of pc overclocking long ago.. this dude just showed us chemical coating of transistors.. Even Applied Science would be jealous.
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