China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend • Hacker News Board

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#51

Post by free_rms » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #31

vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it If I do something bad, like file for bankruptcy, it is wiped off of the "private sector credit systems" after seven years. China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. Another important difference is that in the West, being…

> China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances.

This is in a special category of "not even wrong".

1) There's no singular Social Credit System at the moment, there are a dozen trials of different systems in different cities and by different corporations. As such, there's no singular scorekeeping, perpetual or otherwise.

2) In most of the experiments, not only can people get out from under with time, they can accelerate it by doing things that are deemed 'socially positive'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#52

Post by lowdose » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #33

lowdose wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this system is able to make sociopaths more accountable for the suffering they cause. We have no data on people with this spectrum of mental illness because they do not report themselves. Estimations on the number of sociopaths in the wild are anywhere between 1% to 5 % of the population. If this social credit score is able to limit the damage these people can cause during their lifetime I would say the experim…

It will also make minorities more accountable for being minorities. Also known as "driving while black". "Enemy of the State (1998)" but as mundane everyday reality, not a blockbuster movie and with your jelaous neighbours reporting you for anything and everything.

I was talking about the possible positive goals from such a scoring system without projecting local extremes on a foreign system.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#53

Post by disown » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

HashingtheCode wrote: post #2

Nice summary on their website about the privacy restrictions and surveillance of the population due to their dystopian Social Credit System. If people aren't that familiar with SCS, this should bring them up to speed. I understand that this SCS is not yet fully active and in varying parts being tested throughout the country, but, at some point it will be ready and go live nationally. What's really worrying is that th…

My god, you sound exactly like the mindless drones that george orwell described in 1984. Instead of the "2 minute hate", you just participate online in a "2 minute rant". And instead of "eurasia/eastasia was always the enemy", you have "china is always the enemy". And instead of sneering at "Emmanual Goldstein", you sneer at "Xi Jinping".

What is more orwellian than your comment: "We should be ever more vigilant and actively oppose this type of draconian nightmare that George Orwell envisioned in 1984 and which is being perfected by the CCP and brother #1 Xi Jinping."

Do you realize how crazy you sound? Your comment reads like a caricature of a propaganda slogan straight from the novel. It's almost like you are part of a propaganda campaign. But I may be wrong.

Every china related thread, you have a bunch of throwaways repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#54

Post by sleepysysadmin » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #39

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #30

The chinese system should be renamed to 'Social Control System' because that's what it does. It's intention is to control the masses. The problem with governments is size and reach. Governments attempt and do usually keep growing. The government ends up with laws like: https://library.municode.com/ar/little_rock/codes/code_of_or... Why does a government care if you honk a horn near a sandwich shop after 9pm? How many…

> The problem with governments is size and reach. Governments attempt and do usually keep growing. The government ends up with laws like: https://library.municode.com/ar/little_rock/codes/code_of_or... >> Sec. 18-54. - Sounding of horns at sandwich shops. >> No person shall sound the horn on a vehicle at any place where cold drinks or sandwiches are served after 9:00 p.m. >> (Code 1961, § 25-74) Governments don't go…

No doubt some Karen complaining.

That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#55

Post by timwaagh » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

disown wrote: post #37

rfwhyte wrote: post #29

The truly terrifying thing to me about the Chinese social credit system is that the CCP is actively trying to package and sell it to other autocratic states. They're testing it out and optimizing it on their own populace, but the eventual endgame is to sell it to a bunch of Asian, African, and Eastern European dictators and build themselves a nearly omnipotent back door to coerce and control the lives of people the w…

[flagged]

To answer the question, China at the very least had a hand in the creation of Vietnam and north korea. They could be trying to export the system for different reasons than world domination. Perhaps just to make some money or befriend the neighbors. Russia sells its technology to anyone who wants it. Why wouldn't china?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#56

Post by np- » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #38

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

> From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. > Make the goals to get the most profit from the least investment into the work force, coerce their productivity with increasing restrictions and penalties, and you're moving towards virtual enslavement. This seems like the polar opposite o…

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#57

Post by ardy42 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #54

ardy42 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with governments is size and reach. Governments attempt and do usually keep growing. The government ends up with laws like: https://library.municode.com/ar/little_rock/codes/code_of_or... >> Sec. 18-54. - Sounding of horns at sandwich shops. >> No person shall sound the horn on a vehicle at any place where cold drinks or sandwiches are served after 9:00 p.m. >> (Code 1961, § 25-74) Governments don't go…

No doubt some Karen complaining. That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific.

> No doubt some Karen complaining.

I have some doubt about that.

> That's an example, but the reality is that laws are tremendously extensive. Yet generally unenforced. When the government can start enforcing. Government will grow even larger and more specific.

I'm pretty confident that the current cost of the above-cited ordinance is zero, and at one point in the past the value it provided was a small positive.

I just Googled the law, and it shows up on a bunch of lists "dumb law" lists. It's way too specific and obscure to probably find any reasoning behind it without going through decades of meeting minutes of the Little Rock City Council.

Here's another one that showed up on many of those lists:

> 3. bear wrestling matches are prohibited. – Alabama (Acts 1996, No. 96-468, p. 581, §1.)

Sounds pretty dumb, right? However, Bear wrestling matches are (or were) a thing, and it seems like it came to be (rightly) considered a form of animal mistreatment:

https://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/national/story/2019/au...

> Bears used in wrestling were usually defanged and declawed, as well as kept in small trailers and fed poor diets, according to previous reports....

> Even at the start of the 1992 legislative season, bear wrestling was still reportedly legal in some parishes. But by the end of it, the activity was outlawed in every corner of Louisiana by the means of state law with little debate from lawmakers.

> "It was just a poor form of entertainment that was at the expense of the animals," Jeff Dorson, Louisiana Humane Society director, told The Times in a 2011 report. Dorson lobbied for the bill in 1992.

> "The state congress was surprisingly sympathetic to the bill after we showed them videotape and pictures of the animals," Dorson said.

> The law came as an addition to the state's cruelty to animals criminal codes, and after three years of complaints on how traveling side show owners were treating their bears.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#58

Post by free_rms » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #38

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

> From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. > Make the goals to get the most profit from the least investment into the work force, coerce their productivity with increasing restrictions and penalties, and you're moving towards virtual enslavement. This seems like the polar opposite o…

Why should we need data sources?

We were told that history was over and the US won, damn it! Why won't the rest of the world know their place?

We'll just project problems with US society and Western historical paradigms onto them because it's much easier than learning anything about them.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#59

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #27

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

Maybe this system is able to make sociopaths more accountable for the suffering they cause. We have no data on people with this spectrum of mental illness because they do not report themselves. Estimations on the number of sociopaths in the wild are anywhere between 1% to 5 % of the population. If this social credit score is able to limit the damage these people can cause during their lifetime I would say the experim…

[deleted]

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#60

Post by mistermann » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

np- wrote: post #56

mistermann wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. > Make the goals to get the most profit from the least investment into the work force, coerce their productivity with increasing restrictions and penalties, and you're moving towards virtual enslavement. This seems like the polar opposite o…

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

> But the expense seems to be...

There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class.

Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, although determining the degree to which the distribution is consistent with what is "fair" is obviously problematic, as with any other country.

As for the Uighur & Tibetan situation, this is starting to look like it's going to be just one of those very unfortunate facts of life, but my intuition is that once the distinctness of these cultures is sufficiently eliminated (wild guess: 20-100 years), the difference of treatment will be relatively minimal, provided standard of living continues to rise across the board. But then who knows, anything can happen.