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Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

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Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#51

Post by NhanH »

jka wrote: post #30

This is a slight tangent to the article, but in the hope HN readers will find this as fascinating as I have recently... There's a three-way battle developing between AlphaZero (as described in the article, courtesy of DeepMind), LCZero[5] (derived from LeelaZero[1] -- an open source interpretation of the same principles as AZ), and Stockfish[2] (a long-standing open source chess engine that has recently begun includi…

LeelaZero is strictly used for the Go AI nowadays, the chess version changed their name to LC0 (or Leela Chess Zero, or LCZero), and the website is at [0]

AlphaZero is not involved in any battle with LC0 or Stockfish, as no one outside of Deepmind has accessed to it. The battle for chess supreme is between LC0 and Stockfish, with both trading blows pretty much every update :-)

[0] https://lczero.org/

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#52

Post by jka »

NhanH wrote: post #51
jka wrote: post #30

This is a slight tangent to the article, but in the hope HN readers will find this as fascinating as I have recently... There's a three-way battle developing between AlphaZero (as described in the article, courtesy of DeepMind), LCZero[5] (derived from LeelaZero[1] -- an open source interpretation of the same principles as AZ), and Stockfish[2] (a long-standing open source chess engine that has recently begun includi…

LeelaZero is strictly used for the Go AI nowadays, the chess version changed their name to LC0 (or Leela Chess Zero, or LCZero), and the website is at [0] AlphaZero is not involved in any battle with LC0 or Stockfish, as no one outside of Deepmind has accessed to it. The battle for chess supreme is between LC0 and Stockfish, with both trading blows pretty much every update :-) [0] https://lczero.org/

My mistake, thanks for the correction :)

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#53

Post by me_me_me »

dh5 wrote: post #48
me_me_me wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got back to chess few years back, and following scene a bit. The classical long for chess is basically dead. Its boring, with majority draws (close to solved game - de0incentivizing aggressive play). I am glad there is shift towards shorter time formats. Shorter time control creates more urgency and allows to play subpar moves to throw off your opponent. Its much more interesting to observe. Armagedon rules are bei…

I strongly disagree with the assertion that chess is a "close to solved game" in human OTB play in particular. Top GMs currently will probably score 0/12 against Leela/Stockfish. We see innovations frequently in recent years as we learn from engines themselves, h4/h5 pushes as a simple example, but also in terms of style like favoring rapid development and attacking play. Yes, draws are frequent but that doesn't mean…

> I strongly disagree with the assertion that chess is a "close to solved game" in human OTB play in particular.

I meant 90min +30mins classical format. It really is stale and boring to watch. And it seems like its mainly a memory game with some meta counter preparations pre-tournament. Where you develop and memorize lines to counter your opponent. That's what I meant by "close to solved game" - as both players are almost role playing for first 20-30 moves. With tiny variations throughout the tournament.

That results in quite uneventful games, usually same line being played in multiple games.

Anyhow that's just an opinion, if someone enjoys classical more power to them.

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#54

Post by kleiba »

WalterBright wrote: post #11

When I was in college, a Monopoly game appeared on the DEC-10. Playing that for a while completely ruined the game for me. Then someone wrote a bot to play ADVENT, which ruined that, too. My ability to play chess declined precipitously after I learned how to program, because while thinking of my next move I'd always digress into how to design a program to do the work for me. I originally wrote the Empire game because…

But would you say the net outcome of this process was a loss or a win for you personally? I mean, I for one never played Monopoly with a computer and yet my perception of the game has certainly changed - not because of technology but because I'm an adult now. I think our stance towards everything always evolves.

In return, you were able to find a new interest through this irk: programming. And I think being passionate about something is what's required to become really good at something, so the fact that your chess playing started to make you think more and deeper about programming was certainly beneficially for the latter.

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#55

Post by mk_chan »

jka wrote: post #30

This is a slight tangent to the article, but in the hope HN readers will find this as fascinating as I have recently... There's a three-way battle developing between AlphaZero (as described in the article, courtesy of DeepMind), LCZero[5] (derived from LeelaZero[1] -- an open source interpretation of the same principles as AZ), and Stockfish[2] (a long-standing open source chess engine that has recently begun includi…

Very recently, with the advent of the NNUE evaluation and it's incorporation into stockfish, it is the undisputed champion over all others by a very significant margin.

It even beats out lc0 running on an RTX 2080 while itself running in single-threaded mode (it scales well in strength up to at least 32 threads, beginning to taper off from there)

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#57

Post by scotty79 »

keiferski wrote: post #27

Question for those knowledgeable on AI: what sort of game would be easy for a human to understand, but difficult or impossible for a computer to play or easily defeat humans? I imagine one based purely on randomness, like dice, would be one. I remember reading somewhere that languages like Finnish and Hungarian are difficult for computers to parse, [1] due to their agglutinative grammatical structure. Not sure if tha…

Dodgeball. Cup stacking. Or any other game that requires bipedal movement or quick and precise adaptive manual manipulation.

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#58

Post by acegopher »

WalterBright wrote: post #11

When I was in college, a Monopoly game appeared on the DEC-10. Playing that for a while completely ruined the game for me. Then someone wrote a bot to play ADVENT, which ruined that, too. My ability to play chess declined precipitously after I learned how to program, because while thinking of my next move I'd always digress into how to design a program to do the work for me. I originally wrote the Empire game because…

Thank you for Empire! I definitely played the Intersel version on my Amiga in maybe '89, and then on my IBM-PC 386, but I believe I also played via Zenith terminal on a PDP-10/11 on Compu-Serv (my Dad was an early employee), in the early '80s.

I loved the game, and made several attempts and coding my own version. Naturally, I went on to love Civilization as well, which has similar game play.

Having turned 50, I feel the same way about many strategy games I play now... it becomes less about the fun and more about the optimization, and how to optimize via program or AI. But I've always been that way... had pages of formulas for optimal planet management in MegaWars III for example.

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#59

Post by erfgh »

exDM69 wrote: post #42
keiferski wrote: post #27

Question for those knowledgeable on AI: what sort of game would be easy for a human to understand, but difficult or impossible for a computer to play or easily defeat humans? I imagine one based purely on randomness, like dice, would be one. I remember reading somewhere that languages like Finnish and Hungarian are difficult for computers to parse, [1] due to their agglutinative grammatical structure. Not sure if tha…

Not the answer you're looking for, but motor racing and simulations of it. Sounds counter intuitive, but despite doing fast laps when on the circuit alone, even the best AI racers have difficulty surviving a race distance in close pack racing without crashing. Roborace, the autonomous racing league in development has barely managed to put two cars on track and doing an overtake safely. A lot of money and state of the…

Wait, I thought autonomous cars are almost out. You ruined my excitement.

Re: Exploring new forms of chess using artificial intelligence

#60

Post by tanjtanjtanj »

glaberficken wrote: post #46
keiferski wrote: post #27

Question for those knowledgeable on AI: what sort of game would be easy for a human to understand, but difficult or impossible for a computer to play or easily defeat humans? I imagine one based purely on randomness, like dice, would be one. I remember reading somewhere that languages like Finnish and Hungarian are difficult for computers to parse, [1] due to their agglutinative grammatical structure. Not sure if tha…

Bridge (the cards game) has seen a lot of research over the past decades without the bots ever becoming "world class good". Of course you could argue that it is a difficult game for humans to understand as well =) So it might not fit exactly what you prompted for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_bridge

That's because the AI isn't allowed to cheat. The skill of "world class" bridge play mainly lies in creative ways to cheat.
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