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Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#51
post #30
post #5

The rest of the world needs to wake up and realize that China is not messing around. There will be a long list of Hong Kong’s if we continue to look the other way to authoritarian regimes.

This probably implies violence/war. Not many want violence these days.

War happens and is almost continually necessary to keep abusive and hurtful groups at bay.

Go fight somewhere else when necessary/appropriate, or the the fight will come to you eventually.

These are broad brush strokes, I know, but the principle holds true across the centuries.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#52
post #24
post #5

The rest of the world needs to wake up and realize that China is not messing around. There will be a long list of Hong Kong’s if we continue to look the other way to authoritarian regimes.

In the last decade : - Russia annexed Crimea; - Turkey took control of most of the Syrian land across its borders; - Israel continuously colonised bits of Palestinian land; - China is now taking political control of Hong Kong; - UAE forces tool over the Socotra Islands; The West's reactions so far have been ranging from ineffectual economic sanctions to completely ignoring it. I would expect similar "annexations" by…

The West is in many ways equally as guilty but the stakes have changed dramatically. Russia and China are armed to the teeth. Turkey hosts some of the US nuclear weapons as well.

The West gets textiles from turkey and China, electronics from China (and many other natural resources), natural resources from UAE and Russia. And Israel has been viewed as a ‘stable’ partner in an unstable area.

I would agree that the annexations / subjugations have not been legal or good. And in some ways could be equated to what the Nazis began to do. But again, the stakes have changed. One bad decision could totally wreck the world as we know it. It would make the Second World War look small. I believe the West desperately wants to avoid that.

Plus, the US does not have a great (albeit recent) track record with helping out in regards to annexation / subjugation. See Vietnam war and Korean War and War on Terror and Bay of Pigs etc

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#53

I was taught to prepare for globalization in most of my business classes in college. The world was now flat so you must prepare. We must be willing to compete and allow free trade as the internet (specifically the www) has opened the entire world up. But what’s really happened is that the internet has given new powers to governments to regulate and control the people. While I would love to talk about how big and bad…

> what’s happening to the Uighur people.

Let's call it what it is; genocide [1].

[1] - https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/chinas-forced-steri...

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#54

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior: China is testing the waters, in some cases in a quite literal sense (South China Sea), and you're correct that how the world reacts to Hong Kong and the Xinjiang "re-education camps" will be seen as a vital piece of information in the future when deciding on how to proceed with other "problematic" regions: for example Taiwan, which in the case where strong-arming the island into obedience, most probably would require military intervention. Before you claim that this is unlikely or extreme, remember that thanks to the PRC, almost no countries in the world even recognize Taiwan as a country -- so how are you supposed to question the "invasion"?

These actions can all be traced back to China's increased tendency towards authoritarianism, for example the elimination of the term limit for Xi Jinping in 2018,[1] which stands in contrast to China's economic liberalization in the early 1990s.[2] It's important to understand that this liberalization is more or less the sole reason China is the "young superpower" we see today (just look up the GDP numbers from 1990 onwards), so the question is how a reversal of this attitude will serve future Chinese interests. Although unconfirmed, there are claims that Xi's grip on power may be decreasing somewhat, and that there is "widespread opposition" from within the party, but for obvious reasons few are willing to speak out.[3]

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/25/world/asia/china-xi-jinpi...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

[3]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/18/china-xi-jinpi...

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#55

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

That argument is a lot harder to sell since the Korea and Viet Nam wars. Not that I disagree with you. China does need to be reigned in, and we should have started years ago. But the leadership of the USA was mostly of draftable age during the Viet Nam war, or, like me, did their grade school homework in front of the TV news with Walter Cronkite reading the daily body count.

Nobody in their right mind is arguing for a land based invasion of China, so this argument is completely moving the goal posts. It's not either-or, there are many ways to pressure a nation without military intervention.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#56

Truly sad. When HK was handed back to China in 1999, did we know this is inevitable?

Considering China's relationship with Taiwan, I would say yes, we absolutely knew that China would not allow a Chinese territory to be outside of thr CCP's control indefinitely. If anything, I am surprised it took them this long to decide the rest of the world would simply watch and do nothing of importance about it.

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#57

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

playing the devil's advocate The article prefaces by saying this "One way to cement a claim to a disputed territory — and to anger others who think it belongs to them — is to build on it." Then goes onto describe the disputes almost being exclusive between China and the US Navy, and further reinforces that point by saying, "The U.S., the longtime guarantor of freedom of navigation in Asia’s waters..." I'm sorry, but…

It's not ironic, because the United States is not claiming the area as territorial waters belonging to the U.S.

China is clearly the "aggressor" in this situation because they are building military installations in an area that was previously not a militarized zone.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#58
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably implies violence/war. Not many want violence these days.

War happens and is almost continually necessary to keep abusive and hurtful groups at bay. Go fight somewhere else when necessary/appropriate, or the the fight will come to you eventually. These are broad brush strokes, I know, but the principle holds true across the centuries.

jingoistic rhetoric

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#59
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably implies violence/war. Not many want violence these days.

War happens and is almost continually necessary to keep abusive and hurtful groups at bay. Go fight somewhere else when necessary/appropriate, or the the fight will come to you eventually. These are broad brush strokes, I know, but the principle holds true across the centuries.

Not an easy decision to make, when nuclear weapon exists.

And that "somewhere else" --- wherever that is --- is someone's home. Please don't say it as if it's a duel in the wilderness.

Re: Hong Kong mourns the end of its way of life

#60
post #54

What has happened to Hong Kong is a strong canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator for other Chinese territorial disputes [i]. With Hong Kong it was somewhat inevitable but I can't help but imagine how different it would be if the US and EU/Britain (as leads) would have strongly denounced their approach. I suspect in a decade from now the West will be lamenting how Hong Kong was the right opportunity to stifle China's ambi…

The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior: China is testing the waters, in some cases in a quite literal sense (South China Sea), and you're correct that how the world reacts to Hong Kong and the Xinjiang "re-education camps" will be seen as a vital piece of information in the future when deciding on how to proceed with other "problematic" regions: for example Taiwan, which in the case where strong-armi…

You forgot that Chinese invasion on Indian borders left some 50+ people killed just 3 months ago.

You can't give a pass by saying "They're just testing waters". Everything in war is testing waters.

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