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Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

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Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#51

Post by john_moscow »

packetlost wrote: post #11
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I think is pretty fair. There's always bad actors who try to justify riots, but almost everyone agrees that they're bad - the "pro-riot" side of a discussion is usually along the lines of "you know, a violent crackdown just isn't going to work, so we'd better do suchandsuch or they'll keep on being angry".

I think you'd be surprised at how many (particularly young) people and leadership from organizations either refuse to denounce or outright condone rioting.

Many young people don't feel secure about their own lives. Priced out of property ownership, didn't find a serious partner to make family with, don't have a rewarding job. By supporting the rioters they feel like they are attacking a common enemy (people that are better off).

Except, it won't work. The rioters are destroying one of the last remaining pillars of the middle class - small businesses. Sure, Walmart and Amazon will be happy to take over the niche, with a private security force to replace the defunded police. But what it will mean for regular people is less meaningful jobs, more poverty, and even less security.

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#53

Post by john_moscow »

aedocw wrote: post #49
Shivetya wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now riots and civil disorder are there to be exploited by the ruling class leading up to elections until the desired result is changed; they are in power. Just like the noise leading into 2008, complete with celebrity moms and widows, to protests and destruction of property, once the political goal was achieved the money behind these people are groups were removed along with any attention directed their way through t…

The protests against police violence in Portland have continued every night since George Floyd was murdered. There has been a lot of attention at times and crowds swelled to the thousands. There is no organized money behind this, especially now that the groups are much smaller (and the police brutality and intimidation has risen to new levels).[1] Pretty sure the ruling class would prefer for these protests to go awa…

> There is no organized money behind this

May I humbly ask where did all the millions donated to BLM go?

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#54

Post by rayiner »

acephal wrote: post #48

I'm very very surprised that the number one parallel has yet to ever be mentioned in these kinds of discussions: the 2005 Paris riots. French police were held responsible for the deaths of North African teenagers and riots broke out all over suburban Paris that caused waaay more property damage than anything we've seen in America this summer. French media framed the entire issue as brown people showing their true col…

> (same thing in Germany where you have to pass a cultural test to gain citizenship, imagine such a thing in America! [And no, answering questions about the constitution, the foundational legal document, is not the same thing]).

I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, I kind of like that we're more liberal than Germany or France on this. I don't like how liberals in the U.S. fail to appreciate that fact and think the U.S. is super racist and xenophobic. (I guess if they're comparing against a platonic ideal.)

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#55

Post by nickff »

pydry wrote: post #44
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Meanwhile in US/Western Europe riots are for some reason seem to be directed not at government and police but at uninvolved car/store owners. Makes it seem like those rioters have different - maybe opposite - motivations than the protesters.

This is pretty common: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went... "However, the police force denied allegations its undercover officers were there on Monday to provoke the crowd and instigate violence." "Police came under fire Tuesday, when a video surfaced on YouTube that appeared to show three plainclothes police officers at the protest with bandanas across their faces. One of the men was carry…

The government and the police permit themselves to commit fraud, as it is often a convenient means by which to achieve their objectives (i.e. the police can lie to you, but you cannot lie to the police).

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#56

Post by SenoraRaton »

john_moscow wrote: post #53
aedocw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protests against police violence in Portland have continued every night since George Floyd was murdered. There has been a lot of attention at times and crowds swelled to the thousands. There is no organized money behind this, especially now that the groups are much smaller (and the police brutality and intimidation has risen to new levels).[1] Pretty sure the ruling class would prefer for these protests to go awa…

> There is no organized money behind this May I humbly ask where did all the millions donated to BLM go?

Lets just take Amazon for example. They donated to organizations(ACLU/NAACP etc). Likely non profits that support the POC communities. No one is paying protesters to be in the streets.

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#57

Post by SenoraRaton »

vkou wrote: post #47
hirundo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can't, that throws the entire liberal (classical sense) project into question, and opens exhilarating, dangerous doors on both the left and right. Only if they _can_ be solved with violence. I'd argue that even if a particular issue can be solved with violence, the net result will generally be worse than the status quo as the violence will rarely be limited to such issues. I'd think that for an undirected m…

> What would be an example of mob violence that led to a net benefit? The American revolution, the February revolution, the Red River Rebellion, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the revolutions in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, the Chech republic, Poland, do I need to keep going? All of them had violence inflicted on property, and most of them had violence inflicted on people. Were one of those events happen in your town, y…

You forgot the civil rights movement.

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#58

Post by thinkingemote »

teataster wrote: post #21
hirundo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can't, that throws the entire liberal (classical sense) project into question, and opens exhilarating, dangerous doors on both the left and right. Only if they _can_ be solved with violence. I'd argue that even if a particular issue can be solved with violence, the net result will generally be worse than the status quo as the violence will rarely be limited to such issues. I'd think that for an undirected m…

It's not uncommon where I am from for plain clothes police to start riots. That delegitemizes the protestors and legitemizes violent action by the state. Pretty anti-liberal (classical sense :) That's not exactly an undirected mob, but police and edgy teens seem to have an aligned interest.

Additionally in the UK, the police often infiltrates protest organisations. They are often near the very top. The official line is that they cannot use entrapment but they are encouraged to help out and assist activists.

Any activist movement should consider themselves hacked and should look at.amd around the leadership for the site of the vulnerability.

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#59

Post by ycombinete »

jetzzz wrote: post #33

A lot of people in this thread seem to have some false dichotomy in their mind - either you are peacefully protesting or you are rioting by burning random cars and destroying uninvolved storefronts. There is another option: peacefully protest but try to occupy administrative buildings and only use violence as a response to police violence. This is what happened in many post-USSR countries in the so called "colour rev…

In the examples you gave the state was the obvious enemy to the people rioting. In the US right now there seems to be a heavy focus on property owners, business owners being as much the enemy of the people as the government is.

Re: Riots and Political Theory: A Reading List

#60

Post by bhupy »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #18
packetlost wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd be surprised at how many (particularly young) people and leadership from organizations either refuse to denounce or outright condone rioting.

Refusal to denounce rioting can be problematic, but I'm not comfortable equating it with support. If people came by demanding that I denounce some random riot, I wouldn't do it, not because I'm pro-riot but because I reject the implication that the rioters have anything to do with me. I've been quite surprised seeing how many people will condone rioting, but I'm still confident it's a small minority, shrinking to a b…

I don't know if you've heard, but it's no longer enough to simply be "not in favor of riots", you must now be "actively anti-riots" — or so goes that other talking point.
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